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Do running shoes weaken muscles?

Discussion in 'Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses' started by William Fowler, Mar 9, 2011.

  1. Simon:

    I don't even know if barefoot running causes an increase in foot weight or an increase in foot strength. My reason for making that statement is that one of the head scientific researchers that promotes barefoot running once made the statement to me that running in orthotics and shoes weaken feet, "like wearing a neck brace".

    My first response was that in my 28 years of examining runners who wear shoes when they run, I have not seen a single one of these runners with what I call a "weak foot", with atrophied intrinsic muscles. The act of running itself develops better muscle strength just due to the increased demands on the foot muscles caused by resisting the effects of 2.5-3.0 X BW banging against the foot with each running step.

    My second response was that I didn't know that the goal of running was to develop muscle-bound feet. Having more massive feet will not make you run faster or more efficiently. This is because the primary driving muscular forces for running come from proximal in the leg and thigh. It would not make good mechanical sense for runners to have larger foot muscles than they needed to since this would slow them down by increasing the moment of inertia of their lower extremites and would, in turn, make them less metabolically efficient during running.

    From my perspective, this idea that running shoes or orthotics somehow weaken feet is just another one of the unproven hypotheses that is coming from a bunch of zealots who want everyone to believe that wearing shoes and orthoses is somehow unhealthy and think we should return to a more "natural" lifestyle..........whatever that is?!
     
  2. toomoon

    toomoon Well-Known Member

    Does anyone know anything about a guy called Daniel Howell. He calls himself The Barefoot Doctor, and I have to debate him at the upcoming UK SEM conference in London...
     
  3. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    He will be easy to debate with. I have his book. Its all propaganda and no substance. His understanding in the book of foot biomechanics is woeful (eg still talks about the discredited tripod model of the foot!!). He has made claims that shoes interfere with the windlass .... easy to make a fool of him over that one by showing in-shoe first met head pressures. His PhD is in biochemistry, so that somehow makes him an expert in biomechanics and somehow qualifies him to give medical advice on foot problems. He personifies what I have repeatedly said in 100's of posts:
    I won't wish you luck for the debate, as you won't need it.
     
  4. You can read his book

    http://www.thebarefootbook.com/

    50 great reason to kick off your shoes - apparently
     
  5. JB1973

    JB1973 Active Member


    No daniel i did not know that. And i wonder how you do.
    Honestly, i've never heard such nonsense. I dont know why we are still debating this stuff with these idiots.
    JB
     
  6. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    I have no doubt shoes do cause a lot of problems, but if you going to make statements like that, come up with the evidence and back it up.

    I wonder how he explains the extraordinary high number of injuries in barefoot runners that are being seen? Barefoot running is good for business.
     
  7. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    No sooner than posting the above I got an email. You know when the email starts off with
    and a few more expletives that its not a good sign. It says a lot about the person sending the email and also the weakness of their argument that they totally incapable of having any dialogue about the actual issue and have to resort to name calling.

    They were shouting about all the studies that show that flat feet is caused by footwear. Experiences has shown me the folly of responding to emails that start like the above as the name calling only escalates, so I will respond here.

    For there benefit I will type this slowly:
    There are no studies that show shoes cause flat feet (we have discussed this many times in many threads).

    There are some studies that have shown a high correlation between flat feet and shoes when you compare shoe wearing to non-shoe wearing populations, so how do you interpret that. There are several ways to interpret the results:
    1. The shoes caused the flat feet
    2. Those with flat feet wear shoes as they feel better wearing them
    3. Those who wear shoes more often walk on hard surfaces and it was the hard surface that caused the flat feet
    4. etc

    Those with an agenda to promote will believe that correlation is causation and interpret that research as "1. The shoes caused the flat feet". This is the classic
    The rest of the world will be open to any one of the explanations being the reason. I have no doubt that shoes do cause a lot of problems, but you can't use the above type of correlation studies as evidence for that.
     
  8. blinda

    blinda MVP

    Sorry Craig, had a bad day. Will try and be more civil in future ;).
     
  9. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    Simon - you can also read Daniel's musings on twitter:

    www.twitter.com/barefoot_prof
     
  10. Do people really care that much about taking off your shoes to go for a run.

    People really have got their priorities messed up.

    More important things in life..................

    and to the person who email Craig get over it a wake up to yourself it really is not that important go visit a Cancer ward or Homeless shelter spend some time there get some perspective
     
  11. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    On a similar vein, I don't recall seeing an epidemic of flat feet every ski season. Skiers spend all day in the most supportive footwear that exists.....perhaps those who think that running shoes weaken muscles could explain why it dosen't happen in skiing?

    So i guess:
    8. (I accept that the EMG signal is not really a sign of muscle strength, but you got my point)
    9. Those who wear the most supportive rigid shoes (eg cyclists, skiers) do not develop weak or flat feet
     
  12. JB1973

    JB1973 Active Member

  13. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    They can't back it up. They actually believe the stuff they are making up! Even worse, people fall for it. Show me the science!
    On another note, just yesterday got my copy of the booklet from Michael Shermer and Pat Linse: The Baloney Detection Kit. This thread makes a good case study of this.... if more of this stuff was put through the Baloney Detection Kit, then so many would not fall for it.
     
  14. ag1

    ag1 Member

    Thank you for posting that, made my day. Here I am studying clinical biomechanics and this 19th century chemistry apprentice had the answer all along. I'm throwing my books out the window!

    :pigs:
     
  15. David Wedemeyer

    David Wedemeyer Well-Known Member

    In viewing the video JB posted I have to ask if anyone else thinks that what Chris McDougall is demonstrating to those people and having them perform looks nothing like the running form he uses at the beginning of the video? He sure looks like a heel striker to me, heel/toe runner?
     
  16. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    The drill looks like something that is commonly done by those teaching the Pose running technique (I think)
     
  17. I wish I was there so I could tell Chris McDougall these words:

    "Man, you are so full of yourself that you actually believe the bull**** that you are trying to teach these poor runners. Why don't you go back to writing and your slow running style and leave proper running techniques to experienced coaches who aren't trying to sell something as being "new and improved" all the time!!"

    What a joke!!
     
  18. DaVinci

    DaVinci Well-Known Member

  19. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    Its not just the Pose runners. This science blog has caught McDougal out in a lie! (saying something different now to what he said in an interview in 2009!)
    Full story
    Some of the comments in the post are interesting:
     
  20. The saying never let the truth get i the way of a good story comes to mind
     
  21. Blaise Dubois

    Blaise Dubois Active Member

    YES
    Not very strong science but some!
    * Weakness: Sachithanandam-1995, Rao-1992, Robbins-1997
    * Minimalism or barefoot increase strength: Robbins-1987, Potthast-2005, Bruggemann-2005
    More information in a one day cours soon in Australia
    www.therunningclinic.com
    Blaise Dubois
     
  22. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    Nope. All they showed was a correlation between flatfoot and shoe wearing. The results could be interpreted any number of ways:
    1) The shoes caused the flatfoot
    2) Those with flatfoot choose to wear shoes more often because its more comfortable and the shoes did not cause the flatfoot
    3) Its nothing to do with the shoes and those who wear shoes more often ambulate on harder surfaces and the flatfoot was due to the hard surface
    4) etc

    Anyone who accepts any one of those possible conclusions above another is guilty of confirmation bias.

    ...and don't forget that a weakness of the intrinsic muscles of the foot actually led to a higher arch foot and not a flatfoot.

    Editorialization of experimental research results to claim something that their research did not actually show.
    No one is denying that, but how does that show that running shoes weaken muscles? HOWEVER, there is one study: Minimalist Running Does NOT Increase Arch Strength
     
  23. Blaise:

    Welcome to Podiatry Arena.:welcome:

    Why would it be advantageous to have intrinsic foot muscles which were larger than normal when the added mass of such muscles would increase the moment of inertia of the limb? Would it not, in fact, be better for runners to have the minimum muscle mass within the foot necessary in order to accomplish the task (i.e. running) most efficiently and with the least chance of injury?

    In other words, why is it even important that runners have muscle-bound feet, a trait that so many barefooters seem to brag about on their blogs, but probably has no practical significance for runners?
     
  24. Boots n all

    Boots n all Well-Known Member

    CP said "...don't forget that a weakness of the intrinsic muscles of the foot actually led to a higher arch foot and not a flatfoot."

    As can be seen in your CMT or Gillain Barre Syndrome clients with their pes-cavus foot types, these clients have little to no intrinsic muscle function.
     
  25. The concept of running shoes is to help the toal individual move with the best interface with their kinetic chain and the running surface. Some people have perfect biomechanics and can run in anything. Other people, the majority of runners have a quirky alignment or misalignment that the right shoe, orthotic or insole will enable them to move. The torgue on the various joints in the body is directy related to the interface of the running surface, shoe, insole(orthotic), foot, ankle, tendon, muscle, nerve, vascular structure nad how it interfaces. Of course the biomechanics of each person is so individual that each person will find the magical solution with the right evidence based principles, but also somtimes you need to figure through trial and error what works the best.

    I am always open minded enough to realize that each person will respond a little different to each minute change in any of the above. That explains why when running shoe maanufacturers change and update models...it is better for some and not others. The efficiency of each person is so individual that guidelines help, but we need tobe flexible, just like peoples' bodies are.

    Barefoot running may make some people stronger, but probably not all...it depends on your own structure.
     
  26. Dr. Kirby,

    I'm really curious how the debate went with Dr. Irene Davis on barefoot vs shod running. I recently watched videos of both yourself and Dr. Irene Davis discussing barefoot running and I'm very interested to hear about the debate on this very popular topic. Is there a video anywhere?

    Nick
     
  27. barefootbear

    barefootbear Member

    Quote:David Wedemeyer
    Re: Do running shoes weaken muscles?
    In viewing the video JB posted I have to ask if anyone else thinks that what Chris McDougall is demonstrating to those people and having them perform looks nothing like the running form he uses at the beginning of the video? He sure looks like a heel striker to me, heel/toe runner?


    Heel-striker ?? You have got to be kidding !
     
  28. Nick:

    There was no video made of the debate between Irene and myself. However, you can see a very similar lecture here in this four part video.







     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2016
  29. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    I had to have a laugh at this tweet I caught this AM:
    It still amazes me that people actually fall for that rhetoric and propaganda!

    Overpronation (whatever that is) can be caused by any one of a 100 or so different things, of which muscle weakness is possibly only one of them (intrinsic muscle weakness actually causes a higher arched foot!) and in regard to running shoes:
     
  30. Sicknote

    Sicknote Active Member

    Craig, if you was to go to the gym to primarily work on your core muscles with dynamic exercises while wearing a very stiff corset for support, would your core muscles get stronger or weaker?. And for what reason(s)?.

    How about wearing a knee splint over at the leg extension machine when your trying to work your quads?.



    Do they support the arch?.

    Do running shoes support the arch more than barefoot or minimalist footwear?.


    Why, why all the flat feet?.

    Is there more support for the arch in running shoes?.
     
  31. Sicknote

    Sicknote Active Member

    "Muscle-bound" feet?.

    I'm sorry, but to put any significant amount of muscle mass on the feet even for a body-builder dedicating the cause to it would find it nigh on impossible.

    Poor post Kevin.
     
  32. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    Of course they would get stronger as I am exercising the muscles even with the brace on!!! Same thing happens in a running shoe!

    I assume you have not read the research on quad muscles getting stronger in patients with knee OA when they started wearing braces ... same for a study on a back brace in those with back pain.
    I assume that you have NOT read all the kinematic studies that show they don't.
    No idea what you talking about here. DO you even know what causes 'flat feet'? How many of the 100 or so factors can you actually name? ... and its NOT muscle weakness ... a weakness of the intrinsic muscles causes a higher arched foot.
    Really? SO how do you explain the 'muscle mass' in those from Africa who are habitually baerfoot that they have in their arch?
    Thats funny coming from you. After one other poster, you are the second most complained about for the poor quality of their posts!
     
  33. Sicknote

    Sicknote Active Member

    Your performing dynamic core exercises wearing a brace/corset which restricts ROM to almost zero & your saying you would get even stronger.

    I'm not even going to bother debunking the rest of your post after that troll response.

    I'm wasting my time.
     
  34. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    If I put a brace on my knee and then go to the gym and do some squats with weights across my shoulders or sit in the quad machine to do some knee extensions, are you trying to tell us that my quads are not going to get stronger by me doing that?

    Perhaps you need to go to gym and try it ... then come back and apologize for being such an idiot.
     
  35. CraigT

    CraigT Well-Known Member

    Oh the irony....


    I so hope that no one is paying for your advice.
     
  36. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    Perhaps those who think that traditional running shoes weaken muscles could explain why in this study that those in the traditional running shoe group actually got stronger? (the minimalist group got stronger as well)
     
  37. Bobba Booey

    Bobba Booey Active Member

    They would probably say that the minimalist group got strongerest.
     
  38. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

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    Which is great, because that is a classic tactic used by those arguing from a point of weakness. In the book, Believing Bull**** by Stephen Law, he devotes a whole chapter to 'moving the goalposts'.

    eg
    We started with all the claims that running shoes weaken the muscles
    We now have some evidence that they don't.
    SO, the goalposts gets moved and they would claim that the minimalist group got stronger. Classic tactic rather than admit they were wrong to claims running shoes weaken muscles.

    They would also make a further fool of themselves by not only moving the goalposts and demonstrate that they can not really read research very well and appraise research (ie that paper had a major flaw in the analysis, so its not clear if the minimalist group really did get more stronger! Both groups got stronger. They did not do a between groups comparison which is the standard way of analyzing trials like that)
     
  39. scotfoot

    scotfoot Well-Known Member

    Do modern shoes weaken feet . Yes ,big style .

    "This study shows that foot strength increases by, on average, 57.4% (pā€‰<ā€‰0.001) after six months of daily activity in minimal footwear. The experienced group had similar foot strength as the post intervention group, suggesting that six months of regular minimal footwear use is sufficient to gain full strength, which may aid healthy balance and gait."

    Curtis et al 2021
     
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