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There is no barefoot running debate

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  #241  
Old 28th February 2012, 04:04 PM
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Default Re: There is no barefoot running debate

Podiatry Arena members do not see these ads
would you mind shooting it across to me too Athol.. I could not get the full text
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  #242  
Old 28th February 2012, 04:15 PM
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Default Re: There is no barefoot running debate

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would you mind shooting it across to me too Athol.. I could not get the full text
No Worries Simon,

Done there now.
Athol
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  #243  
Old 28th February 2012, 05:01 PM
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Default Re: There is no barefoot running debate

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Check your inbox. Should be a copy there now.
Athol:

Me too please!

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  #244  
Old 28th February 2012, 05:23 PM
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Default Re: There is no barefoot running debate

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Athol:

Me too please!

kevinakirby@comcast.net
Hi Kevin,

Done.

Luke Kelly posted this study up a little while back and sent my a copy back then.

I can't remember if there was much chat about it at this stage or even what thread it was in. Maybe someone can find the original post by Luke?

Cheers,
Athol
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  #245  
Old 10th March 2012, 01:26 PM
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Default Re: There is no barefoot running debate

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Originally Posted by Kevin Kirby View Post
Just wanted to point out a problem with many of our discussions here on Podiatry Arena as it applies to joint moments. ...
I therefore suggest, that, from now on, we be sure to preface our discussions on joint moments as to whether these joint moments are "external" or "internal", since, otherwise, our discussions will be confusing at best and, at worst, will be exactly opposite to what we meant to say.

This is a significant problem currently and needs to be addressed at all level of biomechanics education for clinicians so that better clarity will result in the teaching of this subject.
Kevin - I offer you the podiatry arena equivalent of an "Amen!" It gets even worse when different areas of research adopt differing conventions for reporting moments. Then, because the people who are working in that area of research are all "in on it", they don't necessarily feel the need to clearly state in an article whether they are reporting internal or external moments. For example, we are working with THA and TKA patients in our gait lab. TKA research typically reports results using an external convention whereas THA research typically reports internal. But, like I said, the authors must think we all have the secret decoder ring and for the most part, don't identify the moment convention they are using. I can't tell you the number of times I would have paid a healthy bounty for the authors to have added a single sentence that said: "Joint moments were reported using an external moment convention." :)

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  #246  
Old 11th March 2012, 12:02 AM
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Default Re: There is no barefoot running debate

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Kevin - I offer you the podiatry arena equivalent of an "Amen!" It gets even worse when different areas of research adopt differing conventions for reporting moments. Then, because the people who are working in that area of research are all "in on it", they don't necessarily feel the need to clearly state in an article whether they are reporting internal or external moments. For example, we are working with THA and TKA patients in our gait lab. TKA research typically reports results using an external convention whereas THA research typically reports internal. But, like I said, the authors must think we all have the secret decoder ring and for the most part, don't identify the moment convention they are using. I can't tell you the number of times I would have paid a healthy bounty for the authors to have added a single sentence that said: "Joint moments were reported using an external moment convention." :)

Cris
Agree. What does "THA" and "TKA" mean? I think they call that: "practicing what you preach".
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  #247  
Old 11th March 2012, 11:19 AM
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Default Re: There is no barefoot running debate

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Originally Posted by Simon Spooner View Post
Agree. What does "THA" and "TKA" mean? I think they call that: "practicing what you preach".
No way I'm telling what THA and TKA means...that's one of those insider bits of information I'm actually in on and you can't just let everyone know or else I wouldn't feel special.

okay, fine...total hip and total knee arthroplasty.
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  #248  
Old 18th March 2012, 11:46 PM
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Default Re: There is no barefoot running debate

This just turned up in my alerts:
Quote:
6. I could write a book (well, at least a blog post) that hypothesizes that more injuries are caused by running too fast than anything else. It is just as plausible as McDougall’s theories.
Quote:
9. Just because it is in “Born to Run” doesn’t mean it is true.
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10. Just because it is on the internet, doesn’t mean it is true. Please consider that this article is on the internet also
from: “Barefoot Running” WTF? LOL
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  #249  
Old 19th March 2012, 09:44 AM
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Default Re: There is no barefoot running debate

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This just turned up in my alerts:

from: “Barefoot Running” WTF? LOL
But you missed the best one:

5. I imagine that running through dog crap is considerably more pleasant in shoes than not.
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  #250  
Old 20th March 2012, 04:58 PM
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Default Re: There is no barefoot running debate

Just saw this one come across:

Diebal AR, Gregory R, Alitz C, and Gerber JP. Forefoot Running Improves Pain and Disability Associated With Chronic Exertional Compartment Syndrome. Am J Sports Med, 2012.


Thoughts?
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  #251  
Old 20th March 2012, 05:01 PM
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Default Re: There is no barefoot running debate

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Diebal AR, Gregory R, Alitz C, and Gerber JP. Forefoot Running Improves Pain and Disability Associated With Chronic Exertional Compartment Syndrome. Am J Sports Med, 2012.
Effects of forefoot running on chronic exertional compartment syndrome
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  #252  
Old 20th March 2012, 05:07 PM
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Default Re: There is no barefoot running debate

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Thoughts?
Its makes intuitive sense. As I have said repeatedly: different running forms load different tissues. As its been shown that the external ankle dorsiflexion moments are higher during forefoot striking, this means that the plantarflexion moments must be less, which means the anterior tibial muscles does not have to work so hard in forefoot striking.

That study was only in 10 subjects and was uncontrolled, BUT, the results were massively significant ... given that all 10 were saved from surgery, we should be adding this to the treatment options for anterior compartment syndrome

Normally I would not say that we should be changing clinical practice based on the results of an uncontrolled study with 10 subjects, but the results are consistent with sound theory and were very significant and if surgery is the only next option left ....
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  #253  
Old 20th March 2012, 08:18 PM
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Default Re: There is no barefoot running debate

I was particularly interested based on the title of the article and then this statement:

Of these, the anterior compartment is the most
commonly reported location of CECS and is the most frequently
studied in regard to intramuscular pressure.

While I agree that it is the most frequently studied, from my experience clinically in a sports medicine / athletic training setting, the prevalence of compartment syndrome to the anterior compartment from a chronic mechanism is much lower than chronic compartment syndromes occurring to the deep posterior compartment. Yes, for acute compartment syndromes, anterior is more common but in high school and college athletes, I have seen many times more chronic deep posteriors than anteriors.

And in that regard, I was thinking specifically of your previous key points Craig. If my clinical experience with CECS is accurate (and from talking with other athletic trainers and orthopods over the years I think it is), then yes, forefoot striking would seemingly benefit the smaller group of people whose CECS is anterior compartment but forefoot strike might serve to increase the problems for the typical (deep posterior compartment) CECS sufferer.
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  #254  
Old 20th March 2012, 08:23 PM
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Default Re: There is no barefoot running debate

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yes, forefoot striking would seemingly benefit the smaller group of people whose CECS is anterior compartment but forefoot strike might serve to increase the problems for the typical (deep posterior compartment) CECS sufferer.
Absolutely. There is no doubt that the post tib muscle is having to work harder in those who forefoot strike.
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  #255  
Old 28th March 2012, 04:16 PM
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Default Re: There is no barefoot running debate

Hi,

What was your impression with the NB Minimuss?

Cheers,
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  #256  
Old 28th March 2012, 04:22 PM
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Default Re: There is no barefoot running debate

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What was your impression with the NB Minimuss?
They are fine; I run in them 2 days/week now. However, I also now run 2 days/week in my maximalist's - the Hoka One One's and they are fine too!
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  #257  
Old 31st March 2012, 01:10 PM
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Default Re: There is no barefoot running debate

http://www.examiner.com/wellness-in-...-named-lawsuit

You might have seen this already and it might be on another post ( i had a quick look but didnt see it). It is alleged that the company, which makes the now famous Five-Finger shoe have made deceptive claims about their health benefits, and this is leading to increased injuries among runners who make the switch.

Interesting stuff

JB
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  #258  
Old 31st March 2012, 01:28 PM
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Default Re: There is no barefoot running debate

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http://www.examiner.com/wellness-in-...-named-lawsuit

You might have seen this already and it might be on another post ( i had a quick look but didnt see it). It is alleged that the company, which makes the now famous Five-Finger shoe have made deceptive claims about their health benefits, and this is leading to increased injuries among runners who make the switch.
Discussed here: Vibram Five Fingers facing class action over health claims
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  #259  
Old 1st April 2012, 01:00 AM
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Default Re: There is no barefoot running debate

A year ago in the previous (now closed) thread, on the Barefoot Running debate, I reported on how many people I came across barefoot/minimalist at the Run for the Kids.

Well, I just back from todays 2012 Run For the Kids; 33 000 runners and I was looking hard - I came across no one barefoot; 2 in Vibrams and 1 in Merrell's (obviously there would have been more). I asked others if they came across any. Everyone I asked noticed NONE! Like the comments a year ago, where are they all? Despite looking, why did I not see more?

If you follow all the blogs writing about the Vibram class action, there are 100's of vibram wearers posting in the comments sections. Maybe Kevin is right with his comments about all this being a "virtual trend" .... ie a lot of noise is being made online about it, but in reality so few are doing it.
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  #260  
Old 3rd April 2012, 05:08 AM
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Default Re: There is no barefoot running debate

As what Christopher Mcdougall said “I can’t prove this, but I believe when my runners train barefoot, they run faster and suffer fewer injuries.” Just forget about the debate. It's totally pointless. I think what's more interesting to read is "The long term effects of Barefoot Running"
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  #261  
Old 3rd April 2012, 11:37 AM
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Default Re: There is no barefoot running debate

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As what Christopher Mcdougall said “I can’t prove this, but I believe when my runners train barefoot, they run faster and suffer fewer injuries.” Just forget about the debate. It's totally pointless. I think what's more interesting to read is "The long term effects of Barefoot Running"
Perhaps you could explain why there are so many injuries in barefoot runners?

You were asked this and other questions in the other thread that you spammed and you never replied. Care to come back and answer this one?
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  #262  
Old 4th April 2012, 03:36 AM
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Default Re: There is no barefoot running debate

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Perhaps you could explain why there are so many injuries in barefoot runners?

You were asked this and other questions in the other thread that you spammed and you never replied. Care to come back and answer this one?
The reason there are so many injuries, is that people do To Much Too Soon Too Far (TMTSTF). They don't listen to their feet and run when they should rest.

This typically occurs because people having experienced the exhilaration and freedom of moving their bodies naturally, i.e. barefoot, overdo it.

If feet have been kept in shoes (atrophy capsules) all their life then they are not fully tuned to the needs of barefootedness. Our bodies were born to run barefoot, accordingly most people should be able to do it as long as they don't TMTSTF it.
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  #263  
Old 4th April 2012, 10:24 AM
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Default Re: There is no barefoot running debate

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The reason there are so many injuries, is that people do To Much Too Soon Too Far (TMTSTF)..
Really? How do you know that? How many of these injuries have you actually treated? Why can not the injuires be due to the higher forefoot dorsiflexion moments. the higher ankle doresiflexion moments and the higher rearfoot eversion moments that occur when forefoot striking?

How about explaining why is that when someone running barefoot gets an injury, the barefooters all claim that its "TMTSTF", yet when a runner gets an injury in a shoe, then the shoe is to blame. Care to explain why that can not also be a "TMTSTF"?

BTW, we still waiting for you to answer the question you have been asked several times in others threads: How many cases of posterior tibial tendon dysfunction have you treated without foot orthotics?

Rather than keep on being a one hit wonder and just drop propaganda and rhetoric, why not engage and actually answer the questions you are being asked. Rather than parrot the same old, same old, answer what you keep being asked.
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  #264  
Old 4th April 2012, 11:29 AM
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Default Re: There is no barefoot running debate

I was lucky enough to hear Proff Joseph Hamill speak today at a BIG (Biomechanics interest group) conference at the University of Ulster Biomechanics lab.

I was the only Podiatrist at the meeting so maybe shouldn't spill the beans before he speaks in Sydney next week and also at the Biomechanics Summer school in June.

If you are interested in the subject whatsoever I wouldn't miss his lecture. It was a fabulous overview of the state of play so far.

Its fair to say he would have Barry for breakfast......

Cheers,
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  #265  
Old 4th April 2012, 11:42 AM
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Default Re: There is no barefoot running debate

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I was the only Podiatrist at the meeting so maybe shouldn't spill the beans before he speaks in Sydney next week and also at the Biomechanics Summer school in June.
IFab next week- will be there with bells. I am expecting Joe to be a highlight (more now).
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  #266  
Old 4th April 2012, 11:52 AM
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IFab next week- will be there with bells. I am expecting Joe to be a highlight (more now).
Enjoy the trip home Craig. I'll be keen to hear what you think next week.
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  #267  
Old 4th April 2012, 01:44 PM
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Default Re: There is no barefoot running debate

Barry- "atrophy capsules". That actually made me snigger out loud.

Anyway back to Craigs points. Why keep banging on about the virtues of barefootedness but not answer any reasonable question posed. I've run in trainers all my life, use shoes to walk about and I am not injured. Why would I jeopardise this to run barefoot. I have tried it, and I didn't do to much too soon, and my calf muscles were screaming at me to stop.

Do you use shoes in daily life? Why so concerned about the 30 mins of running barefoot when you have been in "atrophy capsules" all day? Most of us walk more than we run. Are you advocating barefoot walking too?
JB
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  #268  
Old 4th April 2012, 06:49 PM
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Default Re: There is no barefoot running debate

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Originally Posted by Barry Onion View Post
The reason there are so many injuries, is that people do To Much Too Soon Too Far (TMTSTF). They don't listen to their feet and run when they should rest.

This typically occurs because people having experienced the exhilaration and freedom of moving their bodies naturally, i.e. barefoot, overdo it.

If feet have been kept in shoes (atrophy capsules) all their life then they are not fully tuned to the needs of barefootedness. Our bodies were born to run barefoot, accordingly most people should be able to do it as long as they don't TMTSTF it.
I listen to my feet and that's why I wear shoes with orthotics. They are much happier with the the orthotics. May not be true for everyone, but it works for me.

You know what tuned to barefootedness means, it means you run like you are worried about hurting your feet. However, you still can hurt your feet.

Eric
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Old 4th April 2012, 07:42 PM
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Default Re: There is no barefoot running debate

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IIts fair to say he would have Barry for breakfast......
As I won't be at either of those talks, could you spill the beans a little? I'm curious mostly because this quote seems to suggest he would be rightly opposed to Barry's way of thinking though my impression has been that he and Irene Davis are completely in sync on the "barefoot for all...injuries for none" philosophy. Maybe I am wrong...
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  #270  
Old 4th April 2012, 08:24 PM
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Default Re: There is no barefoot running debate

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As I won't be at either of those talks, could you spill the beans a little? I'm curious mostly because this quote seems to suggest he would be rightly opposed to Barry's way of thinking though my impression has been that he and Irene Davis are completely in sync on the "barefoot for all...injuries for none" philosophy. Maybe I am wrong...
I know for a fact that Joe Hamill is not on the barefoot bandwagon but Irene Davis definitely is a barefoot enthusiast. I will be debating Irene Davis on Barefoot vs Shod Running at the American College of Sports Medicine Annual Meeting in San Francisco on June 2, 2012 and will be lecturing with Joe Hamill on Barefoot Running at the Biomechanics Summer School in Manchester, UK, on June 22-23, 2012.

Both Irene and Joe are excellent lecturers and researchers so I encourage you all to attend their lectures, no matter what type of running style or running shoe/barefoot you feel is best. Should be fun.
__________________
Sincerely,

Kevin

**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College

E-mail: kevinakirby@comcast.net
Website: www.KirbyPodiatry.com

Private Practice:
107 Scripps Drive, Suite 200
Sacramento, CA 95825 USA
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