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"Tackling the 10 Myths of Barefoot Running"

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  #61  
Old 12th March 2012, 06:03 AM
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Default Re: "Tackling the 10 Myths of Barefoot Running"

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Payne View Post
was the reason.
That is pretty funny. Oh well, there are still plenty of gullible non-medical professionals who will be led to believe that if you are a heel striking runner you are doing something bad for your body and that minimalist shoes are some sort of new, great invention.

Have you seen the latest posters from Blaise that are meant to change the current "aberrant" practice of shoe prescribing? If I wasn't so busy now I was going to make up some of my own, much more humorous, versions of the same posters.

http://www.therunningclinic.ca/blog/?p=577&preview=true
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  #62  
Old 12th March 2012, 06:58 AM
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Default Re: "Tackling the 10 Myths of Barefoot Running"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Kirby View Post
Have you seen the latest posters from Blaise that are meant to change the current "aberrant" practice of shoe prescribing? If I wasn't so busy now I was going to make up some of my own, much more humorous, versions of the same posters.

http://www.therunningclinic.ca/blog/?p=577&preview=true
Hi Keven,
I'm to busy now to debate-chat about that, but a poster with a lot of humour and completely ridiculous has been publish in a journal with a lot more influence that the mailing list of the running clinic...
I tell you... it's hilarious!!!
Hop that you don't support that kind of stuff!

http://www.podiatry-arena.com/podiat...d=133156053 1

Also, what's your comment on the presentation of Simon in Austin?
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  #63  
Old 12th March 2012, 08:22 AM
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Default Re: "Tackling the 10 Myths of Barefoot Running"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaise Dubois View Post
Hi Keven,
I'm to busy now to debate-chat about that, but a poster with a lot of humour and completely ridiculous has been publish in a journal with a lot more influence that the mailing list of the running clinic...
I tell you... it's hilarious!!!
Hop that you don't support that kind of stuff!

http://www.podiatry-arena.com/podiat...d=133156053 1

Also, what's your comment on the presentation of Simon in Austin?
Blaise:

Haven't seen this RW shoe finder poster before. Do you have it in a larger format so that I can actually read what it says?
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  #64  
Old 12th March 2012, 10:32 AM
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Default Re: "Tackling the 10 Myths of Barefoot Running"

Nah.. sorry Blaise.. I am in the USA and Canada telling the truth about running and running shoes.... in a lot of public debates, including in Quebec. No exile for this little black duck! Time to give the Quebecoise a more balanced view than they have had recently from you. You will, as you were in Austin, be widely scrutinised for your inaccurate and biased comments! The bull****ometer is warming up as we speak!

ps.. I am not the ASICS Global Research Coordinator nor have I ever been pro.. or anti barefoot.. nor am I a maximalist.. (can't you read Blaise?? I outlined my beliefs.. all of which you apparently agreed with, on this thread very recently..see 8th March.. have you changed your mind???)I am just interested in a case by case approach to my patients, not a one size for all as you propose.. facts mate.. work with facts!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaise Dubois View Post
Simon,
Hope you will be there

The Great Running Shoe Debate- Melbourne 7:30pm Friday March 23

Panel Members:
Dr Craig Richards (doctor, running shoe industry critic, barefoot running advocate)
Craig Payne (podiatrist, barefoot running industry critic)
Blaise Dubois (physiotherapist, international speaker, minimalist running shoe advocate)

The fourth chair is reserved for Simon Bartold (Podiatrist, ASICS's Global Research Co-ordinator, former barefoot advocate turned maximalist) should he emerge from his self-imposed exile from public debate to join us on the night.

http://www.huntergait.com.au/product...ng-shoe-debate
  #65  
Old 12th March 2012, 10:41 AM
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Default Re: "Tackling the 10 Myths of Barefoot Running"

Yup.. Blaise struggles with the truth.. despite claiming the courses were overbooked with a waiting list, and "100%" guaranteed, there was not enough interest.. as I posted.. I heard 2 registered punters, so the pin was pulled.
Fortunately, the majority of podiatrists understand complex biomechanical principles and can see straight through the BS without too much trouble.
The public debate is another matter.. it is very simple to pull a crowd when you promise something with no value or substance.. i mean.. look at Kim Kardashian!




Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben View Post
Blaise,

Why was the 'Podiatrists only' day cancelled for the Melbourne show? This was specifically advertised on this website for a reason I imagine? Was there not enough interest or is there other reasons?

Regards,
Ben
  #66  
Old 12th March 2012, 10:51 AM
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Default Re: "Tackling the 10 Myths of Barefoot Running"

Blaise.. on Feb 1st I asked you to provide evidence for the statements below you have publically broadcast. I followed this up with a further request a week or so later. To date you have not responded on this forum in any way.
Can you please provide the evidence to support these statements you have publically uttered?
Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by toomoon View Post
Blaise.. you have not provided evidence for any of these statements you have made and publically broadcast..??
[quote=toomoon;246319]Sorry.. just one more thing while we are asking questions on this excellent forum.. can you please give us some scientific justification for the following statements you made on the podcast?

treadmill running does not change biomechanics

video is not needed to assess running gait.. it can all be done by eye and a biomechanical assessment takes 10 minutes

barefoot technique is the gold standard

increased vertical loading rate, increased braking forces, increased vertical displacement and increased heel strike ALL come from shoes

shoes cause heel striking

80% of people running barefoot run midfoot and forefoot..

if you heel strike in shoes, the body is not able to protect from injury..

the best way to run safely is to run barefoot..
  #67  
Old 12th March 2012, 11:13 AM
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Default Re: "Tackling the 10 Myths of Barefoot Running"

Dr. Kirby.. you are way smarter than me, so can you explain to me why DuBois , in his posters, is recommending PECH shoes (whatever they are) for athletes when they get a foot or achilles tendon injury??
One of the main premises of his "teachings" is that barefoot and minimalism is the gold standard.. so if this were the case.. why would you recommend PECH shoes (whatever they are...)
he is on public record saying
"increased vertical loading rate, increased braking forces, increased vertical displacement and increased heel strike ALL come from shoes

shoes cause heel striking

80% of people running barefoot run midfoot and forefoot..

if you heel strike in shoes, the body is not able to protect from injury..

the best way to run safely is to run barefoot"

but then says.. "if you get injured , go back to PECH shoes"..whatever the hell they are..

Me no understand. do you have a solution?


Quote:
Originally Posted by K
evin Kirby;252364
That is pretty funny. Oh well, there are still plenty of gullible non-medical professionals who will be led to believe that if you are a heel striking runner you are doing something bad for your body and that minimalist shoes are some sort of new, great invention.

Have you seen the latest posters from Blaise that are meant to change the current "aberrant" practice of shoe prescribing? If I wasn't so busy now I was going to make up some of my own, much more humorous, versions of the same posters.

http://www.therunningclinic.ca/blog/?p=577&preview=true
  #68  
Old 12th March 2012, 01:54 PM
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Default Re: "Tackling the 10 Myths of Barefoot Running"

Quote:
Originally Posted by toomoon View Post
Dr. Kirby.. you are way smarter than me, so can you explain to me why DuBois , in his posters, is recommending PECH shoes (whatever they are) for athletes when they get a foot or achilles tendon injury??
One of the main premises of his "teachings" is that barefoot and minimalism is the gold standard.. so if this were the case.. why would you recommend PECH shoes (whatever they are...)
he is on public record saying
"increased vertical loading rate, increased braking forces, increased vertical displacement and increased heel strike ALL come from shoes

shoes cause heel striking

80% of people running barefoot run midfoot and forefoot..

if you heel strike in shoes, the body is not able to protect from injury..

the best way to run safely is to run barefoot"

but then says.. "if you get injured , go back to PECH shoes"..whatever the hell they are..

Me no understand. do you have a solution?
Simon:

I think you and I are too old to understand this "new knowledge". I mean we actually had 8 track tape players in our cars, had most of our music on vinyl, thought the IBM Selectric typewriter was "advanced technology" and ran races with racing flats that are now, for some reason, called "minimalist shoes".

However, Blaise seems to be a nice guy to me but obviously you two seem to butting heads lately. I've never met him.

I think my beliefs are much more in line with yours Simon, but certainly also realize that there is much room for change in the running shoe industry. If you do make it out to Sacramento for a visit (I'll be in Belgium and Amsterdam for two weeks starting next week), then maybe I'll buy you a beer and we can come up with a better chart to compete with the chart that Blaise made up so runners can get running shoes in a manner that is not so "aberrant".
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  #69  
Old 12th March 2012, 02:58 PM
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Default Re: "Tackling the 10 Myths of Barefoot Running"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Kirby View Post
Simon:

I think you and I are too old to understand this "new knowledge".

Nothing is new.. just repackaged!

If you do make it out to Sacramento for a visit (I'll be in Belgium and Amsterdam for two weeks starting next week), then maybe I'll buy you a beer and we can come up with a better chart to compete with the chart that Blaise made up so runners can get running shoes in a manner that is not so "aberrant".
Pity I will miss you in Amsterdam, I will be there for a week mid April.. hope to catch up in Sacramento..
  #70  
Old 12th March 2012, 03:15 PM
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Default Re: "Tackling the 10 Myths of Barefoot Running"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Kirby View Post
I think my beliefs are much more in line with yours Simon, but certainly also realize that there is much room for change in the running shoe industry. ... and we can come up with a better chart to compete with the chart that Blaise made up so runners can get running shoes in a manner that is not so "aberrant".
Hi keven,
I personally think that you will have more credibility to make a chart by yourself than doing it with Simon. He is a great guy... we took a beer together and he was very cool and we had fun together around a beer... But to my eyes, he is so biased than he bull*** everybody having no scientific background (like retailer), by misusing and misrepresenting science for business purposes... the video I comment was a very good example.

I feel great with grey zone... with debate... with people thinking in another way than me... NOT with lies in the purpose to sale something.
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Old 12th March 2012, 03:31 PM
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Default Re: "Tackling the 10 Myths of Barefoot Running"

[quote=Blaise Dubois;252408]Hi keven,
I personally think that you will have more credibility to make a chart by yourself than doing it with Simon. I feel great with grey zone... with debate...

you may be right Blaise.. but remember I tried to debate you, but you got it all wrong, then got your panties in a bundle when you got called out on your misuse, ininterpretation and misrepresentation (to paraphrase Craig) of the science.. people can go see your posting on the debate and make their own minds up. Please note that despite you trying to foment coment on this arena in relation to this, not one person has commented.. what does that tell you mate. Your inserts were not accurate, but I can't be bothered with than anymore.

you don't know much about athletic footwear Blaise.. you have no idea of the process, no idea of what goes on. So it is a pity you are empowered somehow to preach on behalf of the Church of Barefoot and Minimalism. And people pay you good money for that privilege. Oh well.. time will tell.

while I have you though.. you STILL have not answered the questions I have repeatedly posed for you... these being your public statements that:

treadmill running does not change biomechanics

video is not needed to assess running gait.. it can all be done by eye and a biomechanical assessment takes 10 minutes

barefoot technique is the gold standard

increased vertical loading rate, increased braking forces, increased vertical displacement and increased heel strike ALL come from shoes

shoes cause heel striking

80% of people running barefoot run midfoot and forefoot..

if you heel strike in shoes, the body is not able to protect from injury..

the best way to run safely is to run barefoot..

Can you please provide me with the evidence to support these publically made claims?

thanks Blaise and looking forward to another beer with you soon
  #72  
Old 12th March 2012, 09:07 PM
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Default Re: "Tackling the 10 Myths of Barefoot Running"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaise Dubois View Post
Hi keven,
I personally think that you will have more credibility to make a chart by yourself than doing it with Simon. He is a great guy... we took a beer together and he was very cool and we had fun together around a beer... But to my eyes, he is so biased than he bull*** everybody having no scientific background (like retailer), by misusing and misrepresenting science for business purposes... the video I comment was a very good example.

I feel great with grey zone... with debate... with people thinking in another way than me... NOT with lies in the purpose to sale something.
Blaise:

Thanks for sending me the Runner's World Shoe Finder shoe selection chart. When comparing the shoe selection chart from Runner's World to your chart, I really don't like either of them but I have fewer problems with the Runner's World chart. In other words, I like the Runner's World Shoe Finder better than your chart.

I don't believe that people who self-select to rearfoot strike while running should be encouraged to not rearfoot strike. In addition, I certainly don't believe that barefoot running is "the default" running style. Finally, I don't believe that running shoes with thinner soles and lower heel height differential are better running shoes for the majority of runners. In my 27 years of treating thousands of runners, I have found that the vast majority of runners do quite well in more traditional running shoe designs, as long as the shoe is appropriate for them.

As for Simon Bartold, we first met during one of my first international lectures in New Zealand about 20 years ago. Since then we have lectured together on quite a few occasions and he even played guitar while I sang a Beatles song at our last international conference together.

Simon and I are very good friends and I consider him as one of the smartest sports podiatrists that I know in the world at this time. It will be very difficult for you to convince me that this man that I have known for two decades has anything but the best interest of the running public in mind when he lectures on shoe design and shoe biomechanics. I have never seen him get upset at anyone at any of his lectures but from what I have seen from you so far, you seem to be very good at irritating him.

Therefore, Blaise, I suggest that you give Simon the respect he deserves and he has earned since, as far as I know, you simply don't have the credentials or knowledge that he has gained from his years of clinical experience as a sports podiatrist and his years of work in the biomechanics of running and of athletic shoe design.

Maybe you two can start over again and both respect the fact that you each have opinions that you can agree on and some that you may strongly disagree with. I hope that all of our common goals are to make runners run with less injury, run with more comfort and run with more pleasure by helping them select the best shoes for their own particular running needs.

Let's see if we can all be a little more productive by trying to find some common ground together so that the discussion can be more educational and less antagonistic.
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  #73  
Old 12th March 2012, 10:00 PM
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Default Re: "Tackling the 10 Myths of Barefoot Running"

There is some irony that the one of the first times that I saw the proposition that correction of running technique could part of injury management was during a workshop sponsored by Asics and Simon had quite a lot of input.
Simon was noting that he felt that heavy ‘motion control’ shoes were on the way out. This was 2004- SMA conference in Alice Springs I think(Correct me if I am wrong Simon, but I believe it was Jason Maclaren that did the presentation?).
This is well before it was fashionable... even before 'Born to Run' was published.
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Old 13th March 2012, 12:10 AM
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Default Re: "Tackling the 10 Myths of Barefoot Running"

Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigT View Post
There is some irony that the one of the first times that I saw the proposition that correction of running technique could part of injury management was during a workshop sponsored by Asics and Simon had quite a lot of input.
Simon was noting that he felt that heavy ‘motion control’ shoes were on the way out. This was 2004- SMA conference in Alice Springs I think(Correct me if I am wrong Simon, but I believe it was Jason Maclaren that did the presentation?).
This is well before it was fashionable... even before 'Born to Run' was published.
Simon, Kevin, Bart van Gheluwe and I along with some others discussed this at the Boston PFOLA meeting 2004 over martini's and paper plane building. If I recall, Simon's contention was that we should not be attempting to control motion with shoes, rather we should facilitate it.
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Old 13th March 2012, 01:28 AM
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Default Re: "Tackling the 10 Myths of Barefoot Running"

Not sure where this should go... from Running Times- Are you ready to go minimal?
http://blip.tv/running-times/are-you...inimal-5961290

The exercises described are quite good irrespective of whether you want to try going 'minimal'.

Interesting comment about the function of the plantar fascia and knowledge of the anatomy of the plantar intrinsics...
'The flexor hallucis brevis runs from the back of the heel to the ball of the foot'
Really??

I guess it targets an audience with lay knowledge and therefore simplifies things but I was surprised by this... especially considering tha Dr Mark Cucuzella believes that FHB function is incredibly important in barefoot technique (The video is done by Jay Dicharry with Dr Cucuzella)
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Old 13th March 2012, 06:06 AM
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Default Re: "Tackling the 10 Myths of Barefoot Running"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Spooner View Post
Simon, Kevin, Bart van Gheluwe and I along with some others discussed this at the Boston PFOLA meeting 2004 over martini's and paper plane building. If I recall, Simon's contention was that we should not be attempting to control motion with shoes, rather we should facilitate it.
Good memory Simon! I think Bartold is very proud of his teeny little airplaine!

Here was the rest of the group from that evening. Good times!
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Kevin

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  #77  
Old 14th March 2012, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Kirby View Post
That is pretty funny. Oh well, there are still plenty of gullible non-medical professionals who will be led to believe that if you are a heel striking runner you are doing something bad for your body and that minimalist shoes are some sort of new, great invention.

Have you seen the latest posters from Blaise that are meant to change the current "aberrant" practice of shoe prescribing? If I wasn't so busy now I was going to make up some of my own, much more humorous, versions of the same posters.

http://www.therunningclinic.ca/blog/?p=577&preview=true

What I find humorous is what some "shoe companies" have done. They either believe that there is a place for forefoot/midfoot striking, or they have only added a category of shoes strictly to fill a market niche. This is obvious to both the medical and non-medical professionals. It is clearly seen with the Asics 33. It was created to "work with the foot, and not against it" yet they believe in motion control and not motion enhancement. Why did it take 30 some years for this product to be created if they are research based? Was it created to compete in a market where other similar shoes are being created or was it created to help the runner?
nick
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Old 14th March 2012, 11:52 AM
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Default Re: "Tackling the 10 Myths of Barefoot Running"

" It is clearly seen with the Asics 33. It was created to "work with the foot, and not against it" yet they believe in motion control and not motion enhancement"

Ahhh.. I think you might have this the wrong way round Nick!
In June of 1998 I first used the expression "Motion Enhancement, not Motion Control", at a lecture to a group of post graduate physiotherapy srudents at The University of South Australia. ASICS completely dropped the term Motion Control from their vocabulary in 2002. It has NEVER been used since.
At the SMA Conference in 2006, I had a discussion with Irene Davis on this issue. At this time she was very vocal that running shoes should control the foot and that everyone should wear orthoses. I told her I did not beleive the scienc supported that notion at that time. I even showed her a video I had had made, with the words "motion control" being flushed down a toilet, complete with sound effects. Irene told me I was wrong. She has apparently since changed her mind.
I have been espousing a less is more philosophy for at least 15 years.. ASICS has been committed to this for a similar timeframe. No matter what you may think Nick, ASICS always adheres to the current published science. This is the reason ASICS has not gone down the minimalist path. I will not let them, just as I would not let them persue toning shoes. Time will tell if I am wrong or right.
On anothe matter.. nice photos Kevin.. it is scary how good you and SImon's memories are, and even scarier to see how awesome my paper jet was.
On another note, I believe every company has a pretty poor representation of how to match current footwear to foottype, not the least ASICS. I cringe at some of the stuff I read ,and really wonder at the message it sends to both medical and consumer. Currently, the whole concept of "categorisation" of product is at best wishfull thinking at worst deceitful. I hate it, and I applaud Blaise for at least having a shot at trying something different. I do not agree with it, but nor do I agree with the RW effort either ( nor for that matter do I agree with ASICS).
In my oprinion, this whole thing should be thrown out with the extremely murky bathwater.. the concepts of motion control, cushioning, structure cushioning, maximum support, minimalism, barefoot etc blah, blah should all be abandoned because they really represent nothing.
I would like to see a video base representation of the spectrum of human movement, of biomechanical variability, sex, age gender, and athletic ability, and a representation of what might.. just might, in the continuum from barefoot to very supportive footwear, work for each athelte. This is very difficult to demonstate in print media, and is spmething I have struggled with for years. I will continue.
Finally, there is a very recent paper looking at energy costs barefoot vs shod .... (Metabolic Cost of Running Barefoot versus Shod: Is Lighter Better? Jason R. Franz, Corbyn M. Wierzbinski, and Rodger Kram, Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise, Publish Ahead of Print, February 12th 2012 )Could this be the final nail in the coffin for the last supposed credible argument of the barefoot movement. I will leave you asll to be the judges.. I tried to attach the paper for you, but since I am at ASICS HQ in the USA, they are blocking my outgoings to prevent me telling our secrets to the world! Anyone who need a pdf of the full paper can contact me privately

best to all

Simon
  #79  
Old 14th March 2012, 01:36 PM
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Default Re: "Tackling the 10 Myths of Barefoot Running"

Here is an observation...

I just looked through the latest Runners World magazine and it followed the same pattern as previous recent months. There are no claims what-so-ever in the advertisements from the traditional running shoe company's about their shoes preventing injury .... yet so many commentators/bloggers/etc are demanding that they should come up with some evidence.

The only advertisements for running shoes that make claims to prevent injuries are from the minimalist running shoe company's. Can some explains why those very same commentators/bloggers/etc that are making demands of the traditional running shoe makers are not asking/demanding the same from the minimalist running shoe makers who are actually making the claims .... don't figure.
  #80  
Old 14th March 2012, 02:12 PM
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Default Re: "Tackling the 10 Myths of Barefoot Running"

Quote:
The only advertisements for running shoes that make claims to prevent injuries are from the minimalist running shoe company's. Can some explains why those very same commentators/bloggers/etc that are making demands of the traditional running shoe makers are not asking/demanding the same from the minimalist running shoe makers who are actually making the claims .... don't figure.
No Craig.. I can't explain that, other than to assume these companies, like so many of the bloggers, do not feel any responsibility whatsoever for the things they say.

Last edited by Admin2 : 14th March 2012 at 02:24 PM. Reason: fixed quote
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Old 14th March 2012, 05:15 PM
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Default Re: "Tackling the 10 Myths of Barefoot Running"

Quote:
Originally Posted by toomoon View Post
" It is clearly seen with the Asics 33. It was created to "work with the foot, and not against it" yet they believe in motion control and not motion enhancement"

Ahhh.. I think you might have this the wrong way round Nick!
In June of 1998 I first used the expression "Motion Enhancement, not Motion Control", at a lecture to a group of post graduate physiotherapy srudents at The University of South Australia. ASICS completely dropped the term Motion Control from their vocabulary in 2002. It has NEVER been used since.
At the SMA Conference in 2006, I had a discussion with Irene Davis on this issue. At this time she was very vocal that running shoes should control the foot and that everyone should wear orthoses. I told her I did not beleive the scienc supported that notion at that time. I even showed her a video I had had made, with the words "motion control" being flushed down a toilet, complete with sound effects. Irene told me I was wrong. She has apparently since changed her mind.
I have been espousing a less is more philosophy for at least 15 years.. ASICS has been committed to this for a similar timeframe. No matter what you may think Nick, ASICS always adheres to the current published science. This is the reason ASICS has not gone down the minimalist path. I will not let them, just as I would not let them persue toning shoes. Time will tell if I am wrong or right.
On anothe matter.. nice photos Kevin.. it is scary how good you and SImon's memories are, and even scarier to see how awesome my paper jet was.
On another note, I believe every company has a pretty poor representation of how to match current footwear to foottype, not the least ASICS. I cringe at some of the stuff I read ,and really wonder at the message it sends to both medical and consumer. Currently, the whole concept of "categorisation" of product is at best wishfull thinking at worst deceitful. I hate it, and I applaud Blaise for at least having a shot at trying something different. I do not agree with it, but nor do I agree with the RW effort either ( nor for that matter do I agree with ASICS).
In my oprinion, this whole thing should be thrown out with the extremely murky bathwater.. the concepts of motion control, cushioning, structure cushioning, maximum support, minimalism, barefoot etc blah, blah should all be abandoned because they really represent nothing.
I would like to see a video base representation of the spectrum of human movement, of biomechanical variability, sex, age gender, and athletic ability, and a representation of what might.. just might, in the continuum from barefoot to very supportive footwear, work for each athelte. This is very difficult to demonstate in print media, and is spmething I have struggled with for years. I will continue.
Finally, there is a very recent paper looking at energy costs barefoot vs shod .... (Metabolic Cost of Running Barefoot versus Shod: Is Lighter Better? Jason R. Franz, Corbyn M. Wierzbinski, and Rodger Kram, Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise, Publish Ahead of Print, February 12th 2012 )Could this be the final nail in the coffin for the last supposed credible argument of the barefoot movement. I will leave you asll to be the judges.. I tried to attach the paper for you, but since I am at ASICS HQ in the USA, they are blocking my outgoings to prevent me telling our secrets to the world! Anyone who need a pdf of the full paper can contact me privately

best to all

Simon
Simon:

In case you didn't know, Nick Campitelli, DPM, (nickcampi) is the podiatrist who writes blogs for Podiatry Today that are geared for the minimalist shoe crowd...plus he is a member of the Vibram FiveFinger Biomedical Advisory Board. Nick says he gets absolutely no monetary or any other compensation whatsoever for allowing his photo to be included on the Vibram FiveFinger website.

I am wondering, Simon, since you would know better than I, how common is it for a medical professional to allow their photo to be included on a shoe company website, be included on their "Biomedical Advisory Board", but then receive absolutely no compensation, no trips to seminars, no free shoes, etc for that promotional consideration for the shoe company?

You may want to read Nick's other blog so you can better appreciate his unique line of reasoning.

http://www.podiatrytoday.com/blogged...ill-need-heels
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  #82  
Old 14th March 2012, 05:27 PM
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Default Re: "Tackling the 10 Myths of Barefoot Running"

"I am wondering, Simon, since you would know better than I, how common is it for a medical professional to allow their photo to be included on a shoe company website, be included on their "Biomedical Advisory Board", but then receive absolutely no compensation, no trips to seminars, no free shoes, etc for that promotional consideration for the shoe company?"

I would have thought this was absolutely unprecedented! I sure would not do it!

He must be a very generous fellow. Wish he would get his facts straight though
  #83  
Old 14th March 2012, 07:32 PM
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Default Re: "Tackling the 10 Myths of Barefoot Running"

Quote:
Originally Posted by toomoon View Post
" It is clearly seen with the Asics 33. It was created to "work with the foot, and not against it" yet they believe in motion control and not motion enhancement"

Ahhh.. I think you might have this the wrong way round Nick!
In June of 1998 I first used the expression "Motion Enhancement, not Motion Control", at a lecture to a group of post graduate physiotherapy srudents at The University of South Australia. ASICS completely dropped the term Motion Control from their vocabulary in 2002. It has NEVER been used since.
At the SMA Conference in 2006, I had a discussion with Irene Davis on this issue. At this time she was very vocal that running shoes should control the foot and that everyone should wear orthoses. I told her I did not beleive the scienc supported that notion at that time. I even showed her a video I had had made, with the words "motion control" being flushed down a toilet, complete with sound effects. Irene told me I was wrong. She has apparently since changed her mind.
I have been espousing a less is more philosophy for at least 15 years.. ASICS has been committed to this for a similar timeframe. No matter what you may think Nick, ASICS always adheres to the current published science. This is the reason ASICS has not gone down the minimalist path. I will not let them, just as I would not let them persue toning shoes. Time will tell if I am wrong or right.
On anothe matter.. nice photos Kevin.. it is scary how good you and SImon's memories are, and even scarier to see how awesome my paper jet was.
On another note, I believe every company has a pretty poor representation of how to match current footwear to foottype, not the least ASICS. I cringe at some of the stuff I read ,and really wonder at the message it sends to both medical and consumer. Currently, the whole concept of "categorisation" of product is at best wishfull thinking at worst deceitful. I hate it, and I applaud Blaise for at least having a shot at trying something different. I do not agree with it, but nor do I agree with the RW effort either ( nor for that matter do I agree with ASICS).
In my oprinion, this whole thing should be thrown out with the extremely murky bathwater.. the concepts of motion control, cushioning, structure cushioning, maximum support, minimalism, barefoot etc blah, blah should all be abandoned because they really represent nothing.
I would like to see a video base representation of the spectrum of human movement, of biomechanical variability, sex, age gender, and athletic ability, and a representation of what might.. just might, in the continuum from barefoot to very supportive footwear, work for each athelte. This is very difficult to demonstate in print media, and is spmething I have struggled with for years. I will continue.
Finally, there is a very recent paper looking at energy costs barefoot vs shod .... (Metabolic Cost of Running Barefoot versus Shod: Is Lighter Better? Jason R. Franz, Corbyn M. Wierzbinski, and Rodger Kram, Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise, Publish Ahead of Print, February 12th 2012 )Could this be the final nail in the coffin for the last supposed credible argument of the barefoot movement. I will leave you asll to be the judges.. I tried to attach the paper for you, but since I am at ASICS HQ in the USA, they are blocking my outgoings to prevent me telling our secrets to the world! Anyone who need a pdf of the full paper can contact me privately

best to all

Simon
Right from Asics website.
http://www.asicsamerica.com/shoe-fit-guide/
Structured cushion ....help control a small degree of pronation.
Maximum Support .....these runners need help to control the degree of pronation.

Does that not imply motion control? Get rid of the trail shoes and 66% of their shoes are disigned to control motion. I'm not speculating, it's listed on Asics site.
  #84  
Old 14th March 2012, 08:21 PM
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Default Re: "Tackling the 10 Myths of Barefoot Running"

Looks like both Daniel Lieberman, PhD, who has Vibram sponsoring his Harvard website and has Vibram sponsoring all his research papers on running biomechanics, has teamed up with Nick Campitelli, the podiatrist who says he receives absolutely no monetary benefit from Vibram, to help write an instructional manual on how to run in Vibram FiveFinger shoes.....step by step.

Funny, I don't know of any other running shoe that requires a 13 page instruction manual just so you can run in their shoes.

Nick, you got to be one of the most kind and generous podiatrists that I know of. You are helping to support this multi-million dollar shoe company with helping to write their shoe instruction manuals and allowing them to put your face and name up on their website all out of the goodness of your heart with absolutely no compensation whatsoever from this companythat is laughing every day all the way to the bank! What a guy!!
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Running in Vibram Fivefingers. A Step by Step Guide.pdf (1.46 MB, 20 views)
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  #85  
Old 15th March 2012, 09:10 AM
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Default Re: "Tackling the 10 Myths of Barefoot Running"

Nick.. of course you are speculating! where does it say 'motionc ontrol'? You claim ASICS say "Motion Control, not motion enhancement". You are wrong. It is the other way around and has been for 14 years!
Your implications are irrelevant.
Mate I am happy for you to be involved with Vibram.. do what you have to do and more importantly do what you believe in. I really hope you do beleive that a kayaking shoe makes a good running shoe???!! If you do not, you are in trouble! I am 100% positive if I trawled through the VFF website I would find things there that would be unsupported by science and would make you squirm. But it is not my style to ever criticise another brand. You may have noticed that I have never, ever done that. I am not really a "brand" kinda guy.

From my perspective, I like to talk about the science, irrespective of ASICS. I love the fact that after 24 years as a specialist clinical sports podiatrist I am now heading up complex research programs in the fields of medicine, biomechanics and physiology, often completely unrelated to, but funded by, ASICS! It really is wonderful. Can you please fill me in on the research projects you are personally conducting right now? I would love to hear how Vibram conducts both its internal and external research, and, as the podiatric advisor to the brand, I am sure you must personally be conducting some very interesting studies. Please let the Arena in on this.
I like to apply the science in relation to my job with ASICS, which has nothing to do with marketing, PR or a "mine is bigger and better than yours" aapproach. I do not have the time or inclination to find fault with other brands..argue on Podiatry Arena about what might or might not be said on a website, and then try to put my own spin, speculation and implictions on what at the end of the day is written by a marketing team. Just not at all interested or relevant to me and my job Nick. How about you? Vibram and you can say and do whatever you like coz end of day, it is the consumer who controls all the decisions! It is just not important, but it is a little unprofessional.
I love what I do, and I believe ASICS has a pretty solid range. You are absolutely entitled to your opinion, and, if as a part of your job with Vibram you choose to snipe at ASICS, or Brooks, or Nike or adidas, that is absolutely your perogative.
I choose to never do that because I believe nothing turns people off quicker.. it seems petty and steeped in inferiority and jealousy.
At these times I reflect on the fact that the data is telling us that VFF market share after the salad days is shrinking rapidly, one major USA chain reported 3 successive quarters of 50% negative growth. Yikes!.. straight from retail Nick. Wonder why that might be.. I could speculate that once you fracture your 2nd mt.....
ASICS meantime continues to sell 55,000 pairs of shoes..... every day, 7 days a week, and this has been going on for at least 16 years. Every day.. every year. Rock solid.. relaible, dependable.
Oh.. and despite the virtual phenomenom of "minimalist" which is actually not real... ASICS will enjoy double digit growth this year. Makes you wonder doesn't it?
So end of the day.. have your opinion about what you think, or suspect or wish to beleive we are all about.. It really does not matter. In the eyes of the athlete, ASICS still seem to have some pretty useful product that a lot of other companies appreciate, just as we appreciate their efforts.
End of the day.. this Arena is about scientific discussions, not a p*ssing match of 2 footwear brands. I am just not interested Nick. It is not appropriate for this forum. If you have some science to present, let's hear it. If not.. leave it be.

best

SImon
  #86  
Old 15th March 2012, 10:13 AM
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Default Re: "Tackling the 10 Myths of Barefoot Running"

I tried discussing scientific literature and was accused of cherry picking.*

I was pointed at as being "paid" by Vibram, yet I do not and have not once made any claims about their shoes.*

When I do bring up scientific literature instead of creating a scientific discussion, others claim I am representing Vibram in these discussions.*

I do not represent Vibram in these discussions.*

I have not claimed people wearing FiveFingers have any reduced injury rates.*

I made my comment because I was embarrassed by Dr Kirby laughing at Blaise's poster and saying that if he had more time he would have made more humorous poster. *That is unprofessional to any rational person and I have a lot of respect for Dr. Kirby and his hard work he has dedicated to the profession.

I just want to debate about form and running not shoe companies. Others brought it into this discussion, not me.*
  #87  
Old 15th March 2012, 10:45 AM
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Default Re: "Tackling the 10 Myths of Barefoot Running"

I think it was this negative advertising for Vibram FiveFingers on the David Letterman Show that was the first hole that spouted before the dam began to burst for Vibrams....too funny....obviously Olbermann didn't read Vibram's 13 page instruction manual on how to run in Vibram FiveFingers before he fractured his foot in these "injury prevention shoes"....

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  #88  
Old 15th March 2012, 10:53 AM
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Default Re: "Tackling the 10 Myths of Barefoot Running"

Nick.. ya'all ever heard the term" you do the crime .. you do the time"?

You did the crime man..

Quote:
Originally Posted by nickcampi View Post
I tried discussing scientific literature and was accused of cherry picking.*


I just want to debate about form and running not shoe companies. Others brought it into this discussion, not me.*
no you do not.. you specifically said
"What I find humorous is what some "shoe companies" have done. They either believe that there is a place for forefoot/midfoot striking, or they have only added a category of shoes strictly to fill a market niche. This is obvious to both the medical and non-medical professionals. It is clearly seen with the Asics 33. It was created to "work with the foot, and not against it" yet they believe in motion control and not motion enhancement. Why did it take 30 some years for this product to be created if they are research based? Was it created to compete in a market where other similar shoes are being created or was it created to help the runner?
nick

Now.. when you call out specific product, from a specific company, then you speculate and assume you know the MO for that product...you better know what the hell what you are talking about and get your facts straight. This you did not do, in fact you got you facts the complete wrong way around.

Let me be clear.. I work as the International Research Consultant to the Global body of the ASICS Corporation. I get very well paid to do this, and it is my job to have a pretty fair idea of what I am talking about. Some may disagree that this is the case, and that is fine by me!

I Plan and oversee all their medical reseach programs, which are based in Universities all over the world, including Staffordshire University in the UK, MIT in Boston USA, Melbourne University, University of South Australia, University of Woolongong, University of Sydney and Australian Institue of Sport, all in Australia.
We research medical, biomechanical and physiological aspects of gait and its implications Nick.

We publish our research in the public domain in high-impact, peer reviewed journals for all to see.
We try very hard, and spend inordinate amounts of money to try to understand what makes footwear safer for the athlete.

We listen to what is happening around us, we pay attention to trends, and we are aware of what other companies are doing. What we DO NOT Do is react to trends unless there is rock solid scientific evidence that points us in that direction. We are a science based company, and that will not change as long as I work here.
We do not pretend to have the answers, but we sure as hell are asking the questions and putting our money where our mouth is.

I work long hours, get exhausted travelling, miss my family horribly, and work with a bunch of dedicated, selfless individuals who have similar values and aspirations as me, and have a genuine desire to help athletes perform better in the safest environment we can provide, based on the best available science of the day.

It is therefore personally insulting to have the likes of you deciding on a scientific forum that it is OK to promote your product and (inaccurately) decide it is ok to rubbish a competitor.

That is very unprofessional, and I most certainly did not engage you or goad you in any way to behave in this manner.

An apology is traditional, but that is up to you.

I would encourage you to step out from behind the certain that has been provided for you, and engage in academic discussions on the technical aspects of athletic footwear. Be open and honest about the problems and challenges that you face in your position with Vibram, as I most certainly am prepared to be in my role with ASICS. If we keep the companies out of it, which have absolutely no place on podiatry area, we may be able to offer something of value to our peers, and they may like to contribute their vast knowlege bank, something I personally rely on.

I for one never tire of these discussion, and I have many friends from many of the athletic footwear companies.
Of course we do not always agree, but, unlike you, we respect each others opinions, and I believe I have learned an enormous amount through their generosity and unbeleivable knowlege.

Once you settle down, and lose you campany hat, you might like to join us.
I don't know you, but I am more than happy to sit down with you any time you like and discuss the issues swirling around us and what we can do to make the world safer for people who wish to play sport.

I like red wine (no.. I LOVE it), I like to run quite slowly and with terrible form, I like to play rock and roll loud and badly on one of my many guitars, have two Boston Terriers named Ono and Peanut and am a Scorpio. What about you?
I am in the USA for 10 weeks and happy to meet with you should you wish

best
Simon
  #89  
Old 15th March 2012, 11:00 AM
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Default Re: "Tackling the 10 Myths of Barefoot Running"

Quote:
Originally Posted by nickcampi View Post
I tried discussing scientific literature and was accused of cherry picking.*

I was pointed at as being "paid" by Vibram, yet I do not and have not once made any claims about their shoes.*

When I do bring up scientific literature instead of creating a scientific discussion, others claim I am representing Vibram in these discussions.*

I do not represent Vibram in these discussions.*

I have not claimed people wearing FiveFingers have any reduced injury rates.*

I made my comment because I was embarrassed by Dr Kirby laughing at Blaise's poster and saying that if he had more time he would have made more humorous poster. *That is unprofessional to any rational person and I have a lot of respect for Dr. Kirby and his hard work he has dedicated to the profession.

I just want to debate about form and running not shoe companies. Others brought it into this discussion, not me.*
Nick:

I didn't actually "laugh at Blaise's poster", I simply thought it wasn't as good as the one presented by Runner's World. Actually, I like some of Blaise's stuff but I have never met the man.

The "poster" that I was considering would not have been serious but rather been something more like other "tongue-in-cheek" items I have produced over the years, such as the "Welcome to the Barefoot Running Club" item I have listed at the end of this posting.

If you had ever met me or Simon Bartold or Simon Spooner, you would realize that we are all very serious podiatrist-scientists, but we also, probably more importantly, like to have fun. Next time you are at a meeting where I am lecturing, Nick, please come and introduce yourself and I would love to shoot the breeze with you since you are obviously passionate about your beliefs.

Until then, I'll try to behave and be nice for a change so we can start to have a more civil discussion.

Quote:
Want to join the Barefoot Run Club?


by Kevin A. Kirby DPM:

Want to Join the Barefoot Running Club??? Here's all you need to do:

1. Read the semi-fiction novel "Born to Run" by Chris McDougall that has plenty of mistruths regarding foot and lower extremity function, exercise physiology and running/racing training philosophy and then, after reading the book, get excited to run "naturally" like our ancestors did, while barefoot.

2. Go onto the internet and read all the fanatistic claims of the one in 10,000 runners who run barefoot and believe all of what they say, all of which is basically regurgitated from the mistruths made in the book, "Born to Run".

3. Restart your running training back to near zero for about 3-12 months while your feet begin to develop the callouses necessary to run barefoot, or buy the Vibram Fivefinger shoe so you can get an easier ticket into the Barefoot Running Club by looking the part of a barefoot runner, without needing to toughen up your feet and reduce your training mileage drastically initially.

4. Start spending 3-4 hours a day scouring the internet, posting on internet sites that discuss barefoot running, and posting under your first name with either "barefoot" or "unshod" before your first name. If someone with an advanced degree thinks that barefoot running is not the best thing that has happened to runners in the past few centuries, then be sure not to objectively discuss the valid points that the naysayer makes, but just attack him or her personally.

5. Run slower than ever in races either barefoot or in the Vibram Fivefinger shoe and, as a result, get increased attention that you are really tougher, smarter and more natural than any of the shod runners ahead of you in the race since you are running like our ancestors did.

6. Ignore all objectivity regarding how barefoot running could possibly cause more injuries or be less healthy than running in shoes. Be a fanatical zealot and insulate yourself from shod runners who dare to claim that they have run comfortably in shoes and heel striking for the past few decades without injury while they run.

7. If you get injured while barefoot running, never post to the barefoot runner's websites to report your injury for fear of being told by the other barefoot running zealots that you weren't running with the correct form or that you weren't running "lightly" enough.

Welcome to the Barefoot Running Club!!
__________________
Sincerely,

Kevin

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Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College

E-mail: kevinakirby@comcast.net
Website: www.KirbyPodiatry.com

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Old 15th March 2012, 11:53 AM
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Default Re: "Tackling the 10 Myths of Barefoot Running"

[quote=Kevin Kirby;252828]

get excited to run "naturally" like our ancestors did, while barefoot.

This is my absolute, absolute favorite of the minmalist arguments. I wonder if Lieberman has the same mental image of a Neanderthal running as I do. Call me weird, but I do not think Og was too worried about his form.
I wonder if they realise that no caveman or cavewoman for that matter ever lived past 40 years, and that all that barefoot s*it probably injured them, causing them to hobble severly and probably get eaten by a sabre toothed tiger. Can't you just picture the beasts talking to each other.. " hey Floyd.. look at that one.. he's been runnin' and now he's limping.. lets cut him outta the tribe.. looks like goooood eatin"
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