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Sue,

paula@phpcan.com

Paula Myrick

Professional Health Products
1-110 Konrad Cres.
Markham, Ont
L3R 9X2
Office 1-800-661-1366
Cell 416-409-5159


Kevin

www.vasylimedical.com

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Graham Curryer

None of us know what we are doing, but some of us know more about what we are not doing than others!::

Excellent point.

Offering money back guarantees and such only 'cheapens' our reputation as a profession.

A client comes to us hoping that we can help them with a problem.
I never guarentee that I will be able to provide the help that they need.

The only time I would give someone their money back is if I guaranteed them that my orthoses would be 100% successful and I never do that.

Agreed. No medical procedure is 100%. You give patients the information and choice to go ahead with a procedure.
Cant refund a lottery ticket because your numbers didnt come up

Ouch Howard would be so hurt ::--))
WOW december 2007 and still going, long term thread Phil.(hi)kevin (hi)
Sure there are some other threads with the same topic KevinL.
Sure i have said the same things or maybe "ally is setting in" I have not had guarantees for synthetic ligs stuck in the knees, the screws in the knees, and jaw or many other choperations etc, just thoughts

Cheers

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Heather J Bassett
137 Wheatsheaf Road
GLENROY VICTORIA 3046
AUSTRALIA
03 9306 8557

I believe that it is important that patients understand that we are not providing a commodity but rather a service. The orthotic device is a component of a biomechanical exam and treatment which, in turn, may be part of a larger treatment plan. The professional service is what differentiates the treatment we provide as podiatrists from a non-professional dispenser of medical equipment and devices. Additionally, orthotic therapy is dynamic in that the device may required modification over time based on the needs of the patient. For example, when providing foot orthotics for a patient with functional equinus, I may initially lower the medial longitudinal arch and avoid a forefoot post. Once the equinus has been mitigated the orthotic is modified accordingly.

Larry Huppin, DPM of Seattle states that he guarantees orthotic comfort and fit but not a clinical end result such as pain relief.

Ed Davis, DPM

BUT... if one really insists, I will guarantee that the orthotics I provide....
1) will never rust
2) are HIPAA compliant
3) are made in the USA
4) contain no GMO (genetically modified) materials
5) have a minimal carbon footprint (except for the carbon-graphite devices)
6) have no impact on global warming...

Ed do you use thermoplastic devices? Aren't they a petro-chemical? Might want to retract gurantee's on 5 and 6!!!

:)

Also I note that Ed states Larry Huppin, DPM provides a guarantee on orthotic comfort and fit but not a clinical end result such as pain relief. It is important to remember that although pain may not reduce, function may improve.

I'm interested in excatly how you inform patients about your guarantee, what do you say?Are you guaranteeing they will be pain free/reduced symptoms etc. Do you refund your consultation fees?
Many thanks.

We guarantee that the devices themselves will be comfortable. One cannot guarantee that we will resolve their problem. that would not be legal. We do not refund consultation fees. In short, while we could rationalize away NOT refunding money for orthotics that are not comfortable (you don't get your money back for antibiotics that cause GI upset and antihypertensive agents that make you dizzy) we try to do what we would want done if we were in the patient's shoes (pun intended). On the other hand, today I had a patient that wanted me to pay to have her orthotics recovered because she decided she wanted black instead of the blue they were made in. We declined to do it for free. That was not reasonable.

Well put Lucky!

I agree....if you want a guarantee, go buy a toaster! True, offering a "money back guarantee" implies....hmmmmm...do they know what they are doing? Think about this: I recall 2 twin sisters going for several months to the same Physiotherapist ( who has a great reputation and certainly knows what she is doing after 20 years of practice ) for almost the same identical left knee problem.

After 9 months of treatment, the 1 sister had symptoms alleviated about 98% while her sister received only 10 % relief. Take a guess what they both said about the "profession of physiotherapy?!" Correct! 1 said it was "awesome" while the other said that "Physiotherapy doesn't work!!" See how rediculous that statement sounds?! Now, the same "goo" went on and into the same people but obviously the results were different. Welcome to medicine. So, when physiotherapists start refunding for therapy care ( I will be purple skinned and 30 feet tall when that happens) that "doesn't work", then , and only then will I offer this strange notion of an orthotic refund.

I don't know about others, but if someone asked that patient (requesting the refund) to go and work for "free" at their job that day because their results were so-so, do you think they would do it?!! NOT!!

1 thing does not work 100% of the time for 100% of your pateints. The orthotic is only a treatment option. We are not Gods and can predict and guarantee that it will "work 100". Health care doesn't work that way. Besides, the ONLY patients I have ever encountered over the last 25 plus years of practice that hinted at a refund were those NOT covered at all with a 3rd party insurance plan. Most of my patients have had anywhere from 60% 70 to 100% coverage; thus the only thing they have to lose is pain.
Insurance companies make millions of dollars per year and they make more than Iand all colleagues in here combined and I don't plan to make them any richer. Also, IF and IF you were to refund, you would have to send it back to the 3rd party insurance Company and not the patient ( who already were rimbursed their $) as patient's could play that game all year long as they are double-dipping in the till.

Nuff said!

Later gator!

Yes we offer a 3 month 200% Comfort and Care Guarantee which is a guarantee on the comfort of the devices, not any results for treatment. At the end of 3 consults in 3 months they can get recast at no cost. If the devices still are not suitable they get a refund minus the initial consult fee.
This has worked really well and the referrers love it. You can read more at www.completefeet.com.au

We provide a lifetime warranty on our orthotics against rust. That warranty is voided by acts of terrorism, war or by wearing the left orthotic in the right shoe or right orthotic in the left shoe.

Additionally, we guarantee all of our orthotics to be Y2K compliant.

50% refund is fair for patients who paid without insurance. Orthotics are not a panacea and I do not want to add salt to their wound. Refunds are rare but it happens.

Steven

Odd how some folks want to make a big fuss out of a fairly simple question..... I'm sure the fine examples of ridicule and satire all help us to be sure who actually does "know best".....which was not part of the original issue in the first place.
regards Phill Carter

Then there is Consumer Law and patients might be entitled to a refund in certain circumstances. It all comes down to expectations. Most of the time good orthoses will fix plantar fasciitis but sometimes they don't or it takes longer than expected. Refund? yes if you told the patient you could fix it. Optometrists give refunds all the time. Its an industry stamdard guarantee on some lenses when upgrading. If you can't adapt you can get refund or replacement. Two things to consider. 1. Is the device correctly made and 2. Does it do what I said to the patient it would do. Yes to both no problem. No to either or both the patient might be able to claim a refund under consumer law.

I wouldn't offer a money back guarantee personally. It would depend on the typeof practitioner that you were but I will not embark upon a course of orthotic treatment if I don't think that I can help(I know plenty of people who do)

Patients are well informed that, although I believe that their problem is a solvable one, there is no guarantee that the treatment will be successful

I don't want to see someone who wants a guarantee as it will most likely cost me more in time costs than I have the potential to make by providing orthotic treatment. I refer them to my competition

I do, however, offer free follow up appointments in the event of non resolution or problems with the orthoses. I will see them for free until such times as I feel that the treatment path is not working for them, in which event I will usually refer on

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I see you girls checkin' out my trunks
I see you girls checkin' out the front of my trunks
I see you girls lookin' at my junk, then checkin' out my rump, then back to my sugarlumps

I agree but occasionally you have to be aware of 'picking your battles'. The only time I have given a refund was over a 'comfort' issue. The patient was not willing to have an adjustment made to the orthoses (which didn't feel exactly like her old pair!). No amount of rational explanation was going to make any difference to her. She had told all her friends I had given her some unwearable orthoses (her 1st pair from me had lasted well and were problem-free in her eyes, she had requested a new pair instead of refurbishing the existing pair), she had been in touch with trading standards, and was taking legal advice claiming the orthoses were not fit for purpose etc.... All before she had even been to see me to give me an opportunity to resolve the issue. I pondered the situation and decided it was not worth the aggravation and time. I gave her a refund and made it clear that my package of care was concluded and that she would need to seek an alternative Podiatrist for any future orthoses. Her new orthoses are still languishing in my cupboard and are an excellent sample to show patients what a custom-made orthotic looks like.

Your right, you have to pick your battles. That's the benefit of having your own practice, You can react as appropriate to the situation.

Steven

Hi

Interesting topic. Here is my thought on this.

There has been some extensive research on this topic (not podiatry related but it does apply). This was what came out of the research: patients/buyers/clients do not want their money back, they only want the purchased item (in our case orthotics) to do what the seller (podiatrist) sayd it would do in the first place!

In stead of giving back money, give another treatment or make different corrections to the device... .

Best
BD

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