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Right now on channel 4 UK, Michael Johnson explores the link between the slave trade and athletic ability.
I'll try to post a link to a player tomorrow- back to the show.........
EDIT: first ad break: only the fittest slaves survived, and slave owners bred the fittest with fittest... so did Mendel... It's called "selective breeding".
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Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College
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Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College
Personally, I think its regional and not genetic, of course running events 400 meters down really muck my statement up. I just hate Michael Johnson's comments because there is no way to be PC on this subject. Yeech
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"If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance." - Orville Wright
Personally, I think its regional and not genetic, of course running events 400 meters down really muck my statement up. I just hate Michael Johnson's comments because there is no way to be PC on this subject. Yeech
The problem is that we just aren't mature enough as a society to realize that these discussions can be approached scientifically without being the least bit "racist". In today's world, as soon as you even mention the fact that the darker skinned individual may have genetic characteristics that are different than the lighter skinned individual due to their different ancestry, someone will label you a "racist". As a scientist, I find the genetic differences between different individuals of different ancestry fascinating, especially as to how they may affect physical performance in athletic competitions or in different environments.
However, due to society's stigma against even mentioning that there may be such scientific correlations of body morphology and physical performance skills to people'a ancestry, there is a general lack of scientific studies on this subject. It is quite sad that scientific study of this subject can't be carried on and discussed without the "racist" word being thrown about by someone who, normally, has a poor understanding of the subject. However, I imagine it will quite a few more years before we have grown up enough as a society before can discuss this subject scientifically without fear of someone accusing them of being something they are not.
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Sincerely,
Kevin
**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College
I told myself... Matthew - don't do it, leave it alone... don't, don't... you don’t have the time! Anyways...
Some here already know my views on evolution (& the bankruptcy thereof). With that aside, let's not forget that the valid scientific principles of "natural selection" / "selective breeding" (i.e. arranging expressive characteristics of the primordial genome) are not & cannot be the driving force/mechanism behind the conjecture surrounding "molecules to man" type evolution. A loaded statement I know, of which I won't hijack the thread with further discussion. Not wanting to come across as “sexist” (maybe Kevin’s point about society needing to become “mature” applies here also)... man has always been man & will always remain man (man = human –> male & female). The crux of this thread is an interesting one... without the need to invoke historical philosophical pre-assumptions - thus the above context (evolution or an intelligent ultimate causation alternative) will be the last I will speak on the matter... at least on this thread (albeit, there will be some alluding to it below).
Following the above trail of thought... another thing to consider is on the other end of the spectrum... i.e. those who spend all day in front of a computer (& eating processed/unnatural foods with utter inactivity) as opposed to professional athletes who are in the position in the 21st century to train multiple hours a day... along with advances (various takes on this concept) on optimal nutrition & aids to propel the human form... well to use the Olympic motto here... Citius, Altius, Fortius, ("Faster, Higher, Stronger"). Then to take the concept a bit further... within this physically orientated performance group, could we then look at the potential for diversification between the activities/sports. Two sports that come to mind due to the amount of training hours involved are swimming & cycling... very different events/activities of which could be speculated (following a sci fi evolutionary thought) to contribute to the development of a different phenotype??? ... per chance (which would be the limit i.e. a group with say a higher Triceps Surae??? - yes, I know cyclist do have this acquired trait). Of cause this is just mere interesting assumptions, of which will not likely happen – for several reasons; two of which - you will need to have generations of the lineage doing the same event from the two groups (possibly isolated from each other). The other being... the human genome has (set) boundaries – period! ... as does other species (i.e. birds, dogs etc...)
Anyway, I do find this topic fascinating. One of my favourite movies is the 1960 film – The Time Machine (I recommend anyone to hire it out – if you can get a copy – I have found it hard to find).
Do we honestly think that human kind could possibly take the path of H.G. Well’s vision of Eloi & Morlocks. The following link (In The Time Machine) relating to the novel & film does somewhat relate to this thread (this post) & one of the speculated consequential outcomes... based on H.G. Well’s philosophical world view (& socio-political opinions) based on his time... similar to that of Charles Darwin (this is a big topic in itself of which certainly influenced their thoughts).
Crikey... I only had intentions of admitting a brief view on the topic... yet got carried away on the passion of the subjects.
Of interest too was the UK BBC television series: "who do you think you are?" featuring Seb Coe- he traced some of his ancestors back to Jamaica. I remember thinking at the time of watching- I wonder if some "slave" genes were included in his lineage?
"Seb's journey in to his family history begins in Cheshire, where the family seat of Hyde Hall once stood, with the story of a philanthropic and upstanding ancestor who worked for the benefit of his community. However, the story soon takes an unexpected turn as Seb follows the trail to Jamaica and discovers the dissolute world of 18th century plantation life. On the island he uncovers illegitimacy, a philandering sugar planter and slavery."
The problem is that we just aren't mature enough as a society to realize that these discussions can be approached scientifically without being the least bit "racist". In today's world, as soon as you even mention the fact that the darker skinned individual may have genetic characteristics that are different than the lighter skinned individual due to their different ancestry, someone will label you a "racist". As a scientist, I find the genetic differences between different individuals of different ancestry fascinating, especially as to how they may affect physical performance in athletic competitions or in different environments.
However, due to society's stigma against even mentioning that there may be such scientific correlations of body morphology and physical performance skills to people'a ancestry, there is a general lack of scientific studies on this subject. It is quite sad that scientific study of this subject can't be carried on and discussed without the "racist" word being thrown about by someone who, normally, has a poor understanding of the subject. However, I imagine it will quite a few more years before we have grown up enough as a society before can discuss this subject scientifically without fear of someone accusing them of being something they are not.
Thanks Kevin.
As someone who has already had the accusation of racist thrown at him and who denies it totally in terms of classifying one race as superior or inferior to another it's heartening to read you statement above.
A little aside but central to the theme, I think.
How many generations does it take to bred in a new physical characteristic so that it becomes dominant within a group/society?
Specific to the slave masters. How did powerful thighs translate into a financial advantage? I would imagine that the slave master wanted a higher work rate for longer and at a lesser cost? Does that easily translate into bigger thighs?
Would the outcome of slavery stop at muscles and tendons, or given the tremendous stamina, endurance, will power, survival instinct, etc that must have been required by the slaves, might the selective bredding also have affected the physical structure of the brain so that the psychological characteristics of the descendants of slaves could, in the right environment, eg athletics, increases their chances of success?
I recall an excellent article in the JAPMA many years ago - sorry, I disposed of that number but someone may have it - in which photographs were taken of black, white and oriental legs tinted in such a way that the skin colour of the owners was indistinguishable. The musculature was then assessed 'blind' from the photographs alone. It was found that largely, black people (American) had short gastoc/soleus groups whilst whites had long. Orientals came somewhere in between. Naturally, this research did not take into account groups such as Kenyans and Ethiopians who are known to have long calf groups which presumably (as well as living at high altitudes) explains their ability at long distance running. I have also heard it stated that black sprinters have long calcaneii resulting in tremendous leverage from the short 'fast twitch' muscle groups.
Valerie Bortsoff (the great Russian 100metres sprinter of some years ago) was rumoured to have been the product of the Ruskies putting all the desirable characteristics of a sprinter into a computer and then running their athletes through that with him coming out top. He was certainly a very stylish runner.
Whether there is any validity into the 'slave theory' I am not competent to judge, but I strongly suspect that on the evidence above, as well as social circumstances, there are many more factors involved than just one.
I recall an excellent article in the JAPMA many years ago - sorry, I disposed of that number but someone may have it - in which photographs were taken of black, white and oriental legs tinted in such a way that the skin colour of the owners was indistinguishable. The musculature was then assessed 'blind' from the photographs alone. It was found that largely, black people (American) had short gastoc/soleus groups whilst whites had long. Orientals came somewhere in between. Naturally, this research did not take into account groups such as Kenyans and Ethiopians who are known to have long calf groups which presumably (as well as living at high altitudes) explains their ability at long distance running. I have also heard it stated that black sprinters have long calcaneii resulting in tremendous leverage from the short 'fast twitch' muscle groups.
Valerie Bortsoff (the great Russian 100metres sprinter of some years ago) was rumoured to have been the product of the Ruskies putting all the desirable characteristics of a sprinter into a computer and then running their athletes through that with him coming out top. He was certainly a very stylish runner.
Whether there is any validity into the 'slave theory' I am not competent to judge, but I strongly suspect that on the evidence above, as well as social circumstances, there are many more factors involved than just one.
Bill Liggins
Bill:
I remember reading the same article, but haven't seen it for at least 25 years and can't recall the name of it. Do you think that this is it?
Quote:
MA Benard and DG Stephens
A racial comparison of morphology in the lower extremity: a preliminary study
J. Am. Podiatr. Med. Assoc. 1979 69:287-95
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Sincerely,
Kevin
**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College
About 12 years ago, I was involved in a size project. Its roots grew from a US fighter plane that was manufactured, using sizing data for the cockpit that was 50 years out of date - and the pilots could not get in. What we were interested in was the allometry of body parts in different ethnic groups (race is a dirty word, and causes grief, wherever it goes). Leave slavery out of it, becuase at this stage it is not helpful; but the truth of the matter is that different ethnic groupd have different body proportions, in allometric terms. When I was a kid there was much fuss about the East African heel - but the truth of the matter probably lies in the fact that some Negroid groups have longer leg, in comparison the trunk dimensions. Equally, and opposite, Japanese peoples have shorter limbs, compared to the trunk. There is nothing new in this, it is well known. I am entirely disinterested in sport, and do not give a toss who wins what, but maybe the reason negroids are doing so well, is not down to their slave past (if American), but simply down to the fact that allometrically, they have differing limb segment stuff, that happens to favour running. Rob
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Honorary Research Associate, Institute for Human Evolution, University of Witwatersrand
Adjunct Associate Professor (Human and Comparative Anatomy), University of Western Sydney
Fellow of The Centre For Human Biology, The University of Western Australia
"Please God, deliver me whole from Creationists......."
I have looked at the Jimmy the Greek video again and again and read his other comments and for the life of me I can't find anything racist about them but maybe my definition of racism is different from yours?
Putting the difficulties of defining race aside it seems to me that the central offensive aspect of racism is the interpretation of difference between one group and another as an indicator of global superiority or inferiority, ie looking at difference between groups is not racist until the differences are intepreted in terms of general superiority/inferiority.
Jimmy the Greek didn't do that?
I can see that his comments would be problematic to the dominant group because they seemed to be identifying certain 'superior' characteristics in the Afroamerican. The 'racism' of his comments was that he was suggesting that white Americans were not safe in their notions of superiority.
To put it another way the outcry against Jimmy the Greek was an indicator of white racism.
Back to the discussion at hand. For those who are reluctant to contribute for fears of being labelled racist, from my point of view, comments only become racist when they attempt to classify difference as an indicator of general superiority or inferiority.
I have looked at the Jimmy the Greek video again and again and read his other comments and for the life of me I can't find anything racist about them but maybe my definition of racism is different from yours?
Putting the difficulties of defining race aside it seems to me that the central offensive aspect of racism is the interpretation of difference between one group and another as an indicator of global superiority or inferiority, ie looking at difference between groups is not racist until the differences are intepreted in terms of general superiority/inferiority.
Jimmy the Greek didn't do that?
I can see that his comments would be problematic to the dominant group because they seemed to be identifying certain 'superior' characteristics in the Afroamerican. The 'racism' of his comments was that he was suggesting that white Americans were not safe in their notions of superiority.
To put it another way the outcry against Jimmy the Greek was an indicator of white racism.
Back to the discussion at hand. For those who are reluctant to contribute for fears of being labelled racist, from my point of view, comments only become racist when they attempt to classify difference as an indicator of general superiority or inferiority.
If I was trying to identify potential future Olympians I would narrow my search and save a lot of time by identifying two characteristcs before starting to look for specific musculoskeletal structural/functional features.
The two factors I would look for are: melalin rich skin and relatively recent (within the last four hundred years) African ancestry.
Analysing the male Olympic track (10 events, omitting relays) results for the last three Olypmics in this way gives the following results.
Gold medal (2000) 8/2, (2004) 8/2, (2008) 9/1.
Any medal (2000) 28/2, (2004) 28/2, (2008) 29/1.
Of course it could simply be that the low melalin long time out of Africa group are no longer competing in athletics in the same numbers and that those with the greatest athletic potential are now sitting in front of their computers, televisions, driving cars, making money, stuffing food down their throats, going on holiday, getting drunk, enjoying the good life, etc..
Michael Johnson: survival of the fastest
Linear Mode
