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Somnio Running Shoes

Discussion in 'Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses' started by RobinP, Apr 5, 2010.

  1. CamWhite

    CamWhite Active Member

    The Somnio brand will find a home with many pedorthic retailers, podiatrists, physical therapists and sports medicine professionals. I think many medical professionals will actually stock, configure and dispense these shoes to walkers and runners in pain.

    Out of the box, they are lightweight and extremely comfortable. Once they are "tuned", they feel amazing to almost everyone that has tried them on. I think the "tuning" process will appeal to many practitioners, because it will satisfy their need to apply their training and customize the fit, if needed.

    What I find most interesting is exactly how opinions are divided about this product. On one hand you have skeptics that vigorously debate the claims and merits of the shoe. Most, if not all of these skeptics have never tried the shoe. On the other hand, you have people that have actually worn the shoe. Almost every response I have seen online and in person from actual wearers has been overwhelmingly positive.

    And now I am getting the same reaction from my customers. I love to see the smile on someone's face and the sincere gratitude when you help them feel better again. In the short 3 days we have had this product, we have seen many of those "smiles"in our store.

    I do not believe these shoes will ever find a home in regular shoe stores. Somnio is a "boutique" fitting experience, and most shoe stores measure success by the sheer number of units cranked out the door. If you are just selling shoes, Somnio will not do well. If you are interested in solving problems, Somnio can be a valuable tool in your toolbox.

    Finally, I believe the Somnio she will evolve over time. In my conversations with the president of the company, I have found him to open to ideas and constructive criticism. They are by no means "close-minded." The 2010 line has already incorporated design changes based upon constructive feedback on the 2009 line. I wish them well.

    I also want to make it very clear that I have no financial relationship with Somnio, other than being a shoe retailer that now carries this product.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2010
  2. David Smith

    David Smith Well-Known Member

    Regards Dave Smith
     
  3. CamWhite

    CamWhite Active Member

    Dave,

    I couldn't agree more with you. 3 days isn't long enough to draw any conclusions, but the initial response is very encouraging. The line-up device is a nice visual tool, but it's not a substitute for a thorough gait analysis. Somnio does license gait analysis software, in conjunction with video equipment and a treadmill. We may in vest in that system in time, but it's a little pricey right now.

    Our store focuses on measuring feet, foot scanning, gait observance and trying to match our customers with the proper shoe and OTC insert, if needed. Works pretty well for most of our customers complaining of nagging pain issues.

    But our store also works closely with medical professionals. We regularly refer our customers to podiatrists, orthopedic surgeons and other medical professionals for a proper diagnosis and treatment plan. It's the right thing to do.
     
  4. You don't need gait analysis software, a camera and a treadmill will do, as long as you can slow-mo the video, you can make the observations you need; measuring angles from 2d video is a waste of time unless you compensate for the parallax error. Pressure mapping a runner on a two step run up, to try and hit a plate and then decelerate in another ten foot is useless, especially if you can't interpret the data- but it sells shoes- right?

    What you really need, and I think this is Dave's point, is the knowledge and skill base to make the correct decisions in terms of the physical characteristics of the interfaces between the foot and the ground required to optimise gait function, based on a competent history and physical of the patient. Does the Saturday shop assistant have this knowledge? Maybe, maybe not. Do you? Maybe, maybe not. If the treatment of running injuries was as simple as the video at the top of this thread suggests, my job would be a piece of piss. Unfortunately, until such time that we see published research to suggest that it is just a case of aligning the knee with a laser line, I'll remain sceptical. Indeed, until such time that a range of variations in the shoes characteristics can be produced which match all of the variations which I put into custom foot orthoses, I will not give up producing custom foot orthoses. That said, I am interested in the concept of the shoe (not the assessment process) and do believe it is innovative and has potential to add to the armoury of the podiatrist, in the same way that any running shoe does.

    Lets take a common scenario. A patient presents wearing a motion control shoe, lets say it's a Saucony Stabil, but the patient is still getting pain in the tibialis posterior tendon. Do you think that the Somnio shoe, with the maximum varus wedging creates supination moment about the subtalar joint axis which exceeds that created by the Saucony Stabil; Brooks Arial etc etc? Where does this shoe, when maximally adjusted in the "control spectrum", fit in the spectrum compared to the other manufacturers motion control shoes, for say a 50kg female? Similarly, what about when comparing neutral cushion shoes, where does this shoe, with minimal varus addition fit in the cushion spectrum for say a 70Kg male?
     
  5. CamWhite

    CamWhite Active Member

    I don't know. I have only had the shoes 3 days, so there really isn't enough data. I am not suggesting that the Somnio shoe replaces the need for custom orthoses at all. The varus wedges and variable cushioning have been helpful for many thus far. I am also not trying to suggest that the Somnio is the magic "Swiss Army Knife" that can be tuned to solve all problems. In fact, it is my hope that there is sufficient depth for the shoe to comfortably accept custom orthoses for your patient with tibialis posterior tendon pain and other issues.

    Who knows, a 2mm or 3mm varus wedge might provide sufficient support inside a Brooks Ariel to provide relief in your example.
     
  6. You miss my point, when I'm making a shoe suggestion to a patient that requires a motion control shoe, where within the spectrum of control shoes does the maxed out somnio fit? I.e. in my example of the patient who is wearing the stabil, would the maxed somnio offer greater pronation resistance or less?

    P.S. I don't measure varus wedging in mm.

    Exactly how many customers who purchased shoes have you served within the last three days? What proportion of them purchased the somnio shoe as opposed to another shoe? How many of those customers did you perform a gait analysis on in a somnio shoe versus other shoes? What, parameters did you use to make the decision to advise the customer as to which was the best shoe for them? As for those customers who did end up buying the somnio shoe, did you do the knee bending test with the £3 line laser on those customers while they were wearing shoes from brands other than somnio?
     
  7. CamWhite

    CamWhite Active Member

    I am not familiar with the Stabil. I don't carry the shoe, so I am not comfortable drawing a comparison.

    I'm really done talking about the Somnio. I responded to this thread to share my observation of the shoe, not to engage in debate. If you are curious about the concept, try picking up a pair and taking a closer look at them.

    Signing off for the weekend. Family & friends are arriving in town for my nephew's wedding this weekend.
     
  8. So you don't carry any other motion control shoes you could make comparison with?
    IT"S A DISCUSSION FORUM; DISCUSSION IS NOT A SOLITARY THING, IT REQUIRES ENGAGEMENT WITH AT LEAST ONE OTHER PERSON!.

    If I were as critical as some of my peers, I'd say you came here to sell somnio shoes and once the discussion got too difficult, you ducked out because.. well its too difficult.

    If I were an owner of a running shoe shop, or someone who worked in one, and had pride, knowledge and confidence in my work, the first questions I should have asked of the somnio rep trying to place their product in my shop were the ones I asked of you tonight, so that I might better know where to place this product among the products supplied by other manufacturers. That is, if your interests go beyond that of selling shoes. Seems that might just have passed you by. Sleep tight in your dreams tonight.
     
  9. Here's a little game for any running shop that stocks somnio shoes, take a few members of your staff/ clients and do the somnio knee bend test (lets assume/ pretend that this test is a repeatable and valid predictor of pathology and of it's treatment) do the somnio shoe work up and repeat until you get the magic knee alignment prescribed by the knee bend test. Then carry out the same test with different shoes from different manufacturers- see if you can achieve that same "magic" alignment...

    What is being sold here (to the shoe shops), the test or the shoe? If it is the test, then that test is applicable to any shoe. If it is the shoe, then the shoe needs to out perform all other shoes, not only in this test, but in any test deemed to be of value.

    Get testing.

    Other factors that may be of significance to stockists:
    profit margin
    availability of stock from supplier
    profit margin
    credit available with supplier
    profit margin.

    I'm just guessing at the above.
    profit margin
     
  10. I don't want to turn into "peter the prolific poster" in this thread, but I just smoked a Cuban and while I was inhaling, I realised that I missed the significance of this statement. What factors lead to this decision not to "carry the shoe", while choosing to "carry" another in preference?

    I work very closely with a few high quality running shops- I'll ask them, get their feedback and report back.
     
  11. David Smith

    David Smith Well-Known Member

    Cam

    I don't know your back ground but it sounds like you runs a sports (shoe) shop specialising in running sports. Sounds like your using your skills in a responsible and ethical way to get the best results for your customers. So don't duck out now when you're doing so well. Simon has asked some good questions that are worth answering. we can both learn from your answers. (added as an edit - Ah I've visited your web site at www. totalrelieffootwear.com so now I can see where your coming from)

    Regards Dave
     
  12. David Smith

    David Smith Well-Known Member

    Simon

    These are good questions, are they worth starting a new thread?

    Cheers Dave
     
  13. Cam:

    Come on back into the argument. Don't let mean old Simon beat you up....he is just jealous cause I'm in Rome and he isn't.:cool:;):drinks
     
  14. CamWhite

    CamWhite Active Member

    Sorry folks,

    Don't mean to duck any questions, but we have a BIG family wedding today, and I am seeing family and friends that I haven't seen in quite some time. I will respond as unscientifically as possible after the weekend.
     
  15. maximillion.

    maximillion. Welcome New Poster

    Hey Guys,

    I thought I would try and answer some of Simon's questions from my own experiences.

    On the pronation resistance of a Somnio shoe vs a Saucony stabil, the answer is that the pronation resistance would be similar. I am not sure if you realize that Somnio make a 'motion control' equivalent base model. However due to the fact that you can change the components in the shoe it tends to be lighter and more flexible than a traditional 'motion control' shoe while providing a similar level of support.
    I say this based on a video assessment rather than using the laser device.

    The laser device is not designed to be used when wearing shoes, but it would be interesting to use the device as you have suggested and measure shoes like for like. The only problem I can forsee, is that if you set the device to its 4 degree correction and then stand on it in a shoe with a 4 degree correction you are now measuring the knee flexion at 8 degree rather than 4, and this would be the same for the stabil and the mission control. I guess you would have to set the device to zero correction for both shoes.

    Personally I believe Somnio are selling the shoe rather than the test, and i agree because of that the shoe needs to stack up in any of the tests that the store might deem fit. In this regard the test adopted by the stores is often video based, and it is here that the Somnio shoes have stacked up very well against the other brands.

    In terms of the decisions to not sell the shoe, the primary resistance I have found is a fear that the shoes will take to long to sell. A lot of stores sell shoes with pretty rudimentary but quick and effective tests and on a busy saturday can be selling shoes to 3 or 4 customers at the same time, and there is a fear that Somnio shoes will take to long to set up correctly and sell.

    However across the board the stores have been intrigued by the concept and very open to the idea of customising running shoes, which has been really encouraging.

    We have also had a heathly interest in the podiatry world for the varus weges and sockliners, with a few podiatrists using and selling the wedges around the UK.
    The wedges are quite minimalist and therefore fit very well into low volume shoes (work shoes, female shoes) and these pods seem to be using them for shoes that their orthotics wont go into or while they are waiting for their custom products to be manufactured.

    Hope that helps.
     
  16. I have some thoughts about this "Somnio Shoe System" after looking at their shoes on their website.

    Here is what caught my eye:

    http://www.somniorunning.com/building-a-better-shoe/biomechanics

    If shoe store salespeople are starting to do video gait analysis and tell their customers which rearfoot and forefoot wedges for the Somnio shoes is best for either their current or past running injuries, and then the runner gets a new injury that occured due to the salesperson's lack of medical knowledge or due to the "prescription" of the wrong amount or type of Somnio wedge, will the shoe store owner/salespeople be liable for practicing medicine without a license? I think so.

    Just wait until the plaintiff's attorneys get wind of the fact that shoe salespeople with no formal medical training are basically "prescribing" heel wedges and forefoot wedges for runners from standing on a platform and taking a short "course" on gait analysis. Is this any different than a shoe store salesperson prescribing a varus sole addition to a walking shoe? My advice for all of you who are shoe store owners and having your employees prescribe rearfoot and forefoot wedges for runners for these Somnio shoes for their "running style" and "running injuries": you are treading on very thin ice here if you suggest these shoes will prevent or treat a runner's injuries.

    What type of liability insurance (maybe malpractice insurance is a better description) does a shoe store need to carry on their employees who, when using the Somnio shoe system to prescribe a certain rearfoot or forefoot wedge for these shoes, caused a runner to develop an injury due to an incorrect prescription? If I owned a running shoe store, I would think twice about taking that liability risk by having non-medical people prescribing these Somnio shoe wedges for my runner-customers.

    Once the first injury occurs due to an incorrect "prescription" from the shoe store salesperson, and that runner then is told by their local sports podiatrist or sports physician that the shoe store salesperson set them up for injury by incorrectly prescribing shoe wedges for them, you are going to have one very irate customer that may, if they are angry enough, be looking for legal recourse against the shoe store owner.
     
  17. Interesting. Lets say that this scenario does occur. If the salesperson had followed the testing process for setting up the Somnio shoes to the letter, could the shop then enter a counter-claim against the shoe manufacturer for providing inaccurate/ ineffective guidelines?

    I guess it all comes back to the knee bend test and whether this is a valid predictor / prevention of pathology. So what does the evidence tell us?
     
  18. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    Great question. Answer: Not sure yet but been meaning to dive into the literature on this for a while. A lot of the Physios I work with subscribe to the Kinetic Control (Mark Comerford) way of thinking regarding neuromuscular recruitment/control. Certainly seen them evaluate small single knee bends (SSKB) as part of both assessment and also rehabilitation. I believe there is literature out there on its benefit in evaluating proximal dysfunction - but will check this.
     
  19. I should have thought it would be a "no brainer" to test the subject barefoot, and then re-test with the Somnio shoe "set-up" and the platform set to zero to make sure the shoe was doing what the test platform said it should do. Shouldn't it?

    Another point here is that experience dictates that while running shoes from different manufacturers may have a similar amount of "control", ultimately comfort is king, and this comes down to last shape etc. Where do Somnio shoes fit in the width "spectrum"?
     
  20. Indeed. As I recall Comerford borrows heavily from Janda. Anyway, do a small knee bend test. Then repeat, but this time activating your gluteals before you start the test...
     
  21. CamWhite

    CamWhite Active Member

    Last week, I asked the people at Somnio, to consider dropping the word "prescription" in conjunction with fitting these shoes. They understood my rationale. A prescription usually follows a diagnosis, and those words are forbidden in my store, along with cure. We provide and carry shoes for maximum comfort. If a customer claims we "cured" his/her plantar fasciitis, that is strictly their opinion. In any case, we have never diagnosed an issue, nor do we "prescribe" a treatment plan. We refer our customers to the appropriate medical professional for a diagnosis. Those medical professionals, in turn, regularly refer patients to our store for the appropriate shoe. It's a nice arrangement, and the patient usually gets the best possible result. It would be a very safe bet that if some of the regular contributors on this forum had a practice in Austin, you would be seeing patients referred from my store.
     
  22. Cam:

    Somnio's attorneys would be smart to read this thread and take your advice on eliminating any mention of the word "prescription" in their advertising or in their training manuals/lectures. Just make sure none of your employees are "overzealous" at "diagnosing" pathologies and "treating" with the Somnio system, and you should be OK.
     
  23. CamWhite

    CamWhite Active Member

    Simon,

    I have a small store dedicated to people that experience pain and discomfort associated with working on their feet, exercising, etc. David posted a link to my website in another post.

    Running shoes are just one category of footwear in my store. I also carry sandals, rocker sole shoes, Z-CoiL shoes, safety boots. My key criteria is that the shoes should be well-made, durable, and have sufficient depth to accept custom or OTC orthoses, if needed.

    In a small store, I can't be everything to everybody. In your motion control scenario, I have 4 possible solutions:

    Brooks Ariel/Beast
    Aetrex X532. V551, V751
    Somnio Self Control
    Z-CoiL

    Each of these shoes can be helpful for the tibialis posterior tendon pain you described. That doesn't mean the Stabil (and others) doesn't belong in this category. But there are limits to the amount of motion control shoes I can carry without being "overbought" in that category.

    We tend to stock products based on the best information on hand. The key factor in our decision to carry shoes is ultimately what makes our customers feel the best. I am more concerned about achieving the results than pushing the brand with the best margin. If a $100 dollar shoe feels noticeably better than a $250 shoe, then it is the "winner". The word-of-mouth generated from staying focused on making people feel better is far more profitable than the short-term gain of selling a higher-margin item, with a less-effective result.

    User reviews of brands like Somnio and Ryn are overwhelmingly positive. I have not found a single negative review on Ryn, and almost every runner that has tried Somnios have published positive to gushing reviews. There is absolutely no scientific rationale for this degree of customer satisfaction, but it catches my attention. In my unscientific opinion, when customers rave about a product, with scarce negative feedback, something good is happening. Hopefully, science will uncover why the shoe is eliciting this reaction.

    The fitflop was developed in a biomechanics lab in London. I appreciate that there was at least some science behind that product. Many customers (not all) with plantar fasciitis notice instant relief from their heel pain when they wear this shoe. If it were just a trendy shoe with little therapeutic benefit, I would not carry it - regardless of its potential profitability. I do not, and will not stock Uggs in my store until they produce a product that is far more than a sheepskin covering for a foot.

    I enjoy following this and other forums because I enjoy learning. I pick up information that makes us better shoe fitters. But we are not doctors, and many of the cases you talk about on this forum are cases that we would refer to another practice.

    Finally, you mentioned something that had been on my mind for a while. I had actually planned to do some comparative tests between brands of shoes with the laser alignment tool. Things have been hectic and my travel schedule is tight, butI will let you know the results.
     
  24. CamWhite

    CamWhite Active Member

    Kevin,

    I did pass your post on to Somnio.

    Fortunately, our store is a "family". Our most junior employee has been with us for 3 years, and we drill on issues to improve customer satisfaction. This includes reminding staff about the scope of our work. Our staff knows that they must not diagnose any condition, prescribe a solution, or suggest that one of our products is the "cure" for anything.

    When customers self-diagnose their issue (usually from internet research), we have made it a habit to give them the card(s) of trusted medical professionals that will diagnose and prescribe a treatment plan for their condition. Our mission is to fit them in the shoe that makes them feel the best, based upon their activity or their occupation.
     
  25. Cam:

    I went onto your shoe store website and thought you did a nice job with it. Good information for the customer and little to no hype. Just the way I like it.

    Also, I liked your little newsletter and your video on rocker soled shoes. Not exactly what I would say, but for the layperson, it is probably very helpful.

    By the way, your "hairdo" looks just like Craig Payne's. Next time I'm out shopping, I'll pick up some "hair volumizer" for you and Craig.;):drinks

     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2016
  26. CamWhite

    CamWhite Active Member

    The rocker sole shoe video was written for the lay person exposed primarily to Skechers and MBT hype. I'm well aware of the various types of rocker sole shoes and pretty well versed on how they function. For the sake of this video, I wanted to keep the focus on heel-to-toe rockers.

    No amount of "hair-volumizer" is going to help my head!:craig:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2016
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  28. Griff

    Griff Moderator

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    Here is Cam explaining the Somnio:

     
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  30. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    Quite an amusing advertising strategy:

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2016
  31. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    Well over a year on and I'm still not aware of any evidence/research of this. However I did come across this article this morning which is sort of linked. It suggests the small single knee bend it not predictive of dynamic knee behaviour, and is not linked with increased knee loading...


    Clinically Assessed Mediolateral Knee Motion: Impact on Gait
    Thorlund, Jonas B. MSc*,†; Creaby, Mark W. PhD*,‡; Simic, Milena MSc*; Hunt, Michael A. PhD*,§; Bennell, Kim L. PhD*; Ageberg, Eva PhD
    Clinical Journal of Sport Medicine: November 2011 - Volume 21 - Issue 6 - p 515–520

     
  32. CamWhite

    CamWhite Active Member

    It appears the Somnio brand has disappeared. At least in the USA.

    I still believe it was an interesting idea, just poorly executed. Many retailers found the product to be too time consuming to sell, and were far more comfortable selling an out-of-the box shoe that didn't require staff training or "tuning".
     
  33. Jonathan

    Jonathan Active Member

    I still like the concept of a tuneable shoe, but first the base shoe must be as good as any of the off the shelf shoe - sadly Somnio were far from it, stitching a weak poorly designed upper to a moderate midsole/sole meant that most retailers spent far too long working on the shoe.

    Personally i feel if this brand hadn't launched in the recession it would have survived, I am sure they would have been producing a quality base shoe by now with the ability for the customer to adjust them.

    Ironically they are still making minimalist shoes - now where is the vision in that :)
     
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