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I did posted it for two reasons:


Would like to discuss more about what is described as "lifted heels in running shoes", this is a matter I didn't found papers about it yet, and in this response Ian Adamson talks about it. Can you help me on this?


English is not my mother tongue, so don't know for you, but for me his title Director of Education @ Newton Running sounds very funny

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Paulo Silva-MSSF
www.calcadodesportivo.com (Portuguese)
Member of the Society of Shoe Fitters
www.shoefitters-uk.org
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Paulo,

I think he's probably referring to the pitch that all shoes have (i.e they are higher at the back than they are at the front). If memory serves me correctly I think I read a post from Simon Bartold on here once which said that as an example most Asics road running shoes have a 10mm pitch (heel raise effectively). As for evidence to back up this chaps claims that this interferes with gait in a negative way and maybe even causes injury (which is what he is suggesting without saying it in my opinion) then I don't know of any.

Infact if anything Asics must believe the opposite, as they have introduced this 10mm raise into a range of their football/rugby boots (as worn by Toby Flood for example)

Ian

Ian is right. Simon B. touted the study and the use of the 10mm pitch on football shoes at the APMA scientific conference in Toronto last year and said the shoes would be out soon.

I think much of the pitch or heel height in athletic shoes comes because of the generally accepted claim that AJ equinus leads to more foot pronation. So, add heel height and your shoes could potentially counter that in theory. Apparently ASICS thinks so and Simon apparently did the study to prove that.

Other need for heel height is to accomodate buit in cushioning systems, gels, air, etc.
Personally I think a shoe company would do well to make a line of shoes that dispenses with that and then can lower the heel height without necessarily lowering the overall pitch due to AJE. It would be worth studying. There is a ton of literature out that is not in favor of cushioning.

Also, the guy from that specific link owns or works for Newton shoes. I think their claim is that they represent the midfoot striking community adn I assume they don't have heel cushioning built into their shoes. I've never held one of their shoes specifically so I don't know what the construction is. I think most of their claims are hype adn they apparently want to capture the Chi Running or Poise running shoe markets. they probably have as well. I can't say they are wrong in their claims, but they have no information to back their claims and regularly relay on anecdotal evidence or customer testimonials.
let the buyer beware!

My 2 cents.
Bruce Williams

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Bruce E. Williams, D.P.M.
Breakthrough Podiatry

We discussed them here- there is also a link to their "science bit"
http://www.podiatry-arena.com/podiat...ad.php?t=24111

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"Science is the antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition."

Kevin,

Just stumbled across a nice debate between you and Ken Bob Saxton in the February edition of Runners World (US version): http://www.runnersworld.com/article/...3401-0,00.html

Also a commentary on it from a barefoot blog here: http://barefoot-running.com/blog/?p=139

Great stuff. Was this a face to face showdown/pistols at dawn?

Ian

Ian:

It was a phone conference call. The debate included about three times more dialogue than this, but was, of course, edited for the magazine. What is interesting is that it seems that only the people who are barefoot runners take the time to write in to comment on these articles, whereas, when I talk to my runner-patients, most of them think these barefoot runners are kind of odd. I guess the shoe-only runners don't think it is important enough to throw in their comments in these blogs.

__________________
Sincerely,

Kevin

**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College

e-mail: kevinakirby@comcast.net

Private Practice:
107 Scripps Drive, Suite 200
Sacramento, CA 95825 USA
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You don't get much barefoot running in the UK - particularly the Isle of Man. It's too cold and the roads are crap!

Robin

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yeah... and 'aint it amazing that NONE of the barefoot fanatics ever mention that Abebe Bakila followed up his Rome feat in 1964 with a pair of custom made adidas shoes... won the marathon again.. AND broke the world record... hmmm

I was led to believe that Bikila won Gold at Tokyo 64 in Pumas? Both the Dassler brothers were persuing him at the time however. And indeed the main reason he ran barefoot in Rome 60 in the first place was that he was a late entry to the team and there were no shoes left that fitted him (but unsure if thats factually correct).

Puma's company history page:

http://about.puma.com/EN/1/10/10/

Wikipedia last minute team entry related here, (no sources presented)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abebe_Bikila

__________________
Paulo Silva-MSSF
www.calcadodesportivo.com (Portuguese)
Member of the Society of Shoe Fitters
www.shoefitters-uk.org
My location

Thanks for that Paulo - if you are interested in such things and haven't already read it then I thoroughly recommend 'Sneaker Wars' by Barbara Smit. Absolutely fascinating learning about the family fued that exists between Adolf and Rudi Dassler.

Ian

Really? Did 11,000 runners run CIM 2009? Funny that the official results only list 5843 finishers. Perhaps you were counting feet.

Hmmm. I guess I, and all my friends cheering for me, were hallucinating.


Neither of these is a major point. I think they may be indicative of your attention to the facts, though.

You may point out that I didn't win the race, or even qualify for Boston. True. But I'm competing against myself, not against Haile. And for this race, I was healthy, healthier than in twenty previous years of running in Brooks Adrenaline, orthotics, and more - all recommended by high profile Bay Area podiatrists.

Built up running shoes are going the way of cigarettes. Which means, it will be a generation before we can all enjoy the healthy running that is our birthright.

-unshod ashish

Barefoot Ashish:

Tell me, how many international running-racing events in the past 49 years have been won by barefoot runners? Less than one hundredth of one percent would be a fair estimate. Until you barefoot runners can show the rest of the running community that barefoot running actually produces fewer injuries, is mechanically more efficient, or allows faster racing ability than running in shoes then you will remain a very small minority of runners that seem to totally ignore the obvious weaknesses of the barefoot running arguments.

Just answer me two questions Ashish: if barefoot running is so great, why aren't any of the elite runners using that "advantage" of running barefoot to win more races?? Could it be that these elite runners actually run faster and with less chance of injuries while in shoes??

__________________
Sincerely,

Kevin

**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College

e-mail: kevinakirby@comcast.net

Private Practice:
107 Scripps Drive, Suite 200
Sacramento, CA 95825 USA
My location

Voice: (916) 925-8111 Fax: (916) 925-8136
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Hi Kevin,

I notice you do not attempt to explain the inaccuracies in your previous email.

Let me answer another question you asked previously but do not repeat: why do most non-elite runners wear running shoes? It's because of (1) multi-million dollar marketing budgets from running shoe companies - they had me for 20 years, and (2) Fear. Fear stoked by podiatrists such as yourself. Just read your own interview in RW.

As a middle of the pack runner, my interest revolves entirely around helping runners like myself, who do not aspire to win major international racing events - who run first and foremost to stay healthy. (Though at my oldest and heaviest, my twenty year PRs are all barefoot.) Runners who weigh more than 140 pounds, who do not want to have surgery on their legs (Haile has had two, I believe), who do not have a team of trainers working with them. You know, the typical RW reader.

I guess the crux of the argument in favor of barefoot running is ... what is the science behind running shoes? Are you familiar with the book _Born to Run_? I was born barefoot - I assume most of us were. We started that way - why not stay that way? Why lace up beefy running shoes in the first place? Running shoes are a multi-billion dollar industry, claiming to solve a medical problem: running injuries. Do you think a drug claiming to reduce injuries would have made it past FDA approval with the kind of science that exists to justify running shoes?! I.e. NONE.

I don't expect to change your mind. It's possible you really believe what you say - I was in that camp for a long time. In light of the tremendous anecdotal evidence in favor of barefooting, as well as increasing scientific evidence - as against nothing on the other side - I don't understand how an open minded person could not consider the possibility of merit in barefooting.

-unshod ashish

You have just proved that barefoot runners really are nutters!
What an absolute load of nonsense!

Born to Run is a work of fiction! Most of it was a fantasy. Lots of factual errors in it. As we have seen in the other thread currently going, the barefoot running community are really good as misreporting and misinterpreting and twisting reasearch to suit their cause.

There is no evidence that running shoes prevent injuiries. There is also no evidence that they cause running injuries either. Just because there is no evidence does not mean they do not prevent injuires. It is funny how they barefoot running community interpret it that way!

Agreed - it is somewhat odd how they interpret the lack of evidence to mean that they are bad! All that can be concuded from the lack of evidence is that there is a lack of evidence ... nothing more and nothing less.

I do actually know that there is a well designed propective RCT on if running shoes prevent actually running injury or not currently under review at a major journal. I know nothing more about it than its under review. .. I guess we all eagerly await the outcome to put this argument to rest.

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Follow me on Twitter | Run Junkie | Latest Blog Post: Foot pronation is not associated with increased injury risk in novice runners wearing a neutral shoe
God put me on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things - right now I am so far behind, I will never die.

Barefoot Ashish:

Why can't you see the evidence of all the runners in front of you at these races, running in shoes, without injury and beating you to the finish line? Don't you ever wonder that possibly if you wore the proper shoes, trained better and ran smarter, that you could also be a faster runner....rather than a slower barefoot runner??

By the way, I ran my second marathon, in what you barefoot runners call a "minimalist shoe" at the age of 18 in a time of 2:39 in 1975. All my running up to that point in my life was in shoes, 99.9% of my training after that time into my college racing days and podiatry school days when I ran my PR in the marathon in 2:28 was in shoes. Prescription foot orthoses was probably the biggest factor in allowing me to run that 2:28 marathon, heel striking all the way, uninjured and in shoes.

Why didn't Chris McDougall not mention the thousands upon thousands of runners who have benefitted and set PRs in their running because of foot orthoses and advanced running shoe technology in his book, Born to Run? Why....probabaly because it wasn't sexy and romantic enough to make the book more interesting.

The biggest joke about that book was that he goes on and on about how terrible Nike is as a shoe company and then what shoe does Chris go out and buy to train in....a Nike Pegasus!! Talk about inconsistencies, that is only one of the more glaring ones. Oh yeah, another one of my favorites is how he goes on about how the Tarahumara runners never get injured because they run lighter and more naturally, blah, blah, blah and then describes a race in which one of them gets a knee injury during the race with Anne Trayson, who is wearing Nikes. Maybe if that Tarahumara runner was wearing Nikes like Anne, he never would have developed that knee injury?

I am truly happy that you think that barefoot running is great for you and your body. Barefoot running may be beneficial for a small segment of the human population in today's world. However, when you start to talk about the science and research evidence for the benefits of barefoot running, all that enthusiasm of yours is only anecdotal evidence, and very weak anecdotal evidence, compared to the thousands upon thousands of runners who run and race in shoes every year without injury.

__________________
Sincerely,

Kevin

**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College

e-mail: kevinakirby@comcast.net

Private Practice:
107 Scripps Drive, Suite 200
Sacramento, CA 95825 USA
My location

Voice: (916) 925-8111 Fax: (916) 925-8136
**************************************************

So using that arguement, You don´t wear clothes at anytime cause thats they way I was born nude with not a stitch on I assume you were as well and therefore you run nude as well.

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Mike Weber.



Crazy Mary

Ashish
Really? Inaccuracies- is that the best criticism? The number of runners in the marathon?
So there was at least one barefoot runner... lets say there were another 50. This inaccuracy would mean the difference between 0.45% barefoot and 0.83% barefoot...
Shame on you Kevin for distorting these crucial facts....

Honestly Ashish, I am very happy that you have found a solution to your running problems by going barefoot. I believe that there are people out there who do benefit from it, and there are others who it would make no difference either way. But there are others who it can be extremely detrimental to... something which is seems to be completely ignored.

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Unshod Ashish:

Until you can truly belong to the Barefoot Running Club.......you will need to complete this list....I know you have a few of the requirements already met.

__________________
Sincerely,

Kevin

**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College

e-mail: kevinakirby@comcast.net

Private Practice:
107 Scripps Drive, Suite 200
Sacramento, CA 95825 USA
My location

Voice: (916) 925-8111 Fax: (916) 925-8136
**************************************************

you know what Ashsish? You have a huge advantage over the rest of us because you have no responsibility to anyone but yourself.
Anyone who is seriously involved in the world of sports medicine however has a responsibility that we take very seriously. In fact we live by it and it is "first.. do no harm" No-one... no- one with any credibility as a responsible and credible sports physician would ever recommend to a client that they first and formost predominantly run barefoot.
You are also quite delusional about evidence for running barefoot being beneficail. There is none.. end of story. Born to Run, which I have read, does not constitue evidence mate.. it is a work of fiction designed to make Chris Mc Dougall and his publishers money.. and good luck to him. I could probably write one called All Medicine is Bad and it would be a best seller too...

I am new here and just read this post. I went through the entire discussion and felt some key points being missed. Looking at just the conclusion of the study one can come to a conclusion that the results are being misinterpreted. Resultant joint moment or torque cannot talk about the pressure acting about the joint. Barefoot running or shoe running is more about the impulse of force and loading and decaying of the force acting on the joint. It would be these forces will be ultimately result in muscle fatigue and injuries.

Second issue is a methodology issue, I do understand the problem with COP adjustments but this would exist for different shoe testing, as long as the COP was adjusted for padding I do not see a problem. To me the problem comes more from knee varus valgus assessment. It is very common problem is biomechanics world that knee varus valgus angle are either overestimated or underestimated. considering that there is going to be an inaccuracy in calculation of joint moments as well.

Another thing is interpretation of joint moment themselves, these moments are just a sign of which particular muscle group is more active than the other. So, here at hip joint internal rotators do more work in shoe running. How does that translate into something bad?

Hope this helps in shedding some more light onto the topic.

Kunal and thanks for the input.

And basd on this study we got to read in the newsmedia and on barefoot running websites that running shoes cause osteoarthritis!

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Second issue is a methodology issue, I do understand the problem with COP adjustments but this would exist for different shoe testing, as long as the COP was adjusted for padding I do not see a problem.

Exactly right.. the problem is there was no correction for the padding, and giant leaps of faith were msde in relation to the interpretation of the results. It is such a pity the media picks up on this stuff..

Herb Elliot trained barefoot and Zola Budd competed barefoot.

on the beach and she eventually had to start wearing running shoes because of all the injuires that she started getting.

And don't forget Abebe Bikala who could run faster and break a word record when he started wearing running shoes.

__________________
Craig Payne
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________
Follow me on Twitter | Run Junkie | Latest Blog Post: Foot pronation is not associated with increased injury risk in novice runners wearing a neutral shoe
God put me on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things - right now I am so far behind, I will never die.

Thanks for the review of ancient running history. Give me just one example of any current elite runner who trains and races barefoot.

__________________
Sincerely,

Kevin

**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College

e-mail: kevinakirby@comcast.net

Private Practice:
107 Scripps Drive, Suite 200
Sacramento, CA 95825 USA
My location

Voice: (916) 925-8111 Fax: (916) 925-8136
**************************************************

Clearly, there is a percentage of the population who can run barefoot with minimal problems, however, I'd wager that the percentage is insignificant when compared to the numbers who run in shoes and experience no biomechancial troubles.

I guess there are a lot of games to be play in life - - Russian Roulette is one I choose not to participate.

I've been scrolling through many forums on here for the past couple days trying to get my head around all the conflicting opinion on running shoes vs barefoot etc. My personal background, I am an MSc graduate of sports biomechanics and working withing the footwear industry for the past couple of years. I hear so much marketing bull#### that my understanding of the shoes is a lot less than what I want it to be. I am currently putting together a bit of a training seminar for our staff and I would be grateful of the input of some of the much experienced minds on here.

Some of my main queries are the following:
- What are the main lower extremity biomechanical differences that exist between running in a traditional running shoe (24mm-12mm) as opposed to minimalist shoes. I have read the Kerrigan article and have noticed the bias and appreciate more unbiased opinions. From what I have seen so far there is much conflicting evidence and it appears a lot of the research is sponsored and biased, in my opinion at least.

- If there is a case for lowering the ramp angle, then why are there not more "big bulky shoes" with lower ramp angles, something like a 20mm/14mm? I know both Saucony and New Balance in the past couple years are dropping shoes to 8mm rather than 12mm ramps.

- Is it fair to say that changing to a FFS rather than RFS may reduce some injury risks while increasing others, i.e. increase in soft tissue damage (achilles, gastroc, post tib) and decrease in others? I would appreciate being pointed in relevant literature.

- I have been selling all types of running shoes for the past couple years and from experience and analysis know what style of footwear suits our customers. I have rarely had bad feedback from thousands of sales across three companies and three countries, however I am not fully aware of the science behind how these technologies are working (or not where the case may be). Training from a tech rep is normally very poor and again biased to their brand, does anyone know of a study examining the variations of technologies used within running shoes?

I believe my philosophies are similar to a lot of posters on here, namely that a barefoot or minimalist running element within a training program can have benefits but should be prescribed with caution.

I look forward to hearing any opinions and I am very open to all arguments and willing to explore in more detail...
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