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"Is a PhD required in order to be an effective and valuable teacher of the clinical practice of podiatry for our podiatry students?"
I would say no, but that is not the whole job description of a university lecturer. Unless specifically described as such, all university academic staff are required to both teach and research. And therein lies the rub: to research, they (universities) would argue, you do need research training, and the bench mark research training in their eyes is a PhD. I didn't make the rules - I have simply followed them for 30 years.
And of course, totally accepted by all, research informs teaching of students - otherwise they get out of date stuff from out of date staff - which I believe is where this discussion came in. Rob
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Honorary Research Associate, Institute for Human Evolution, University of Witwatersrand
Adjunct Associate Professor (Human and Comparative Anatomy), University of Western Sydney
Fellow of The Centre For Human Biology, The University of Western Australia
"Please God, deliver me whole from Creationists......."
You are getting personal Boys - my writings are never personal. Whether like it or like it not, the academic world we live in, at least for those schools of podiatry with the "British model" , hold a PhD as the bench mark. In the 70's and 80's we strived to attain this - and now it seems we are complaining that we have got it. I wrote and presented a conference paper once titled "progress with no change" with a particular slant on this mentality. Simon, you are mixing what the staff are, per se, and what the profression is; you might have a PhD in genetics, but that does not make your podiatry practice hard science IMHO. It does however, make your genetics research and your genetics publications hard science. It is a mistake to get personal - destroys an argument. Rob
I'm not getting personal, Bob. I am getting confused by your answers. At first you stated that "you don't get a job in science without a PhD", the job in question being as a lecturer in podiatry. When I pointed out that there are many individuals working as lecturers in podiatry without PhD's, you then seemed to change the emphasis and stated that you needed a PhD for a job in "hard science" but contended that podiatry is not a "hard science". Thus, by intimation you suggest that since PhD's are required for hard science, but since podiatry is not a hard science, you do not need a PhD to be a podiatry lecturer. Kevin added his comments and now you appear to be saying that you do need a PhD to be a podiatry lecturer. Which is it?
Perhaps it is the way I write. When I said "you don't get a job in science without a PhD", the school I was in was not podiatry - it was the School of Science, Food and Horticulture at the Uni of Western Sydney; I was "sort-of" head of anatomy - there was no podiatry in this school.
I am making no quality judgements by my contention that podiatry - or any other branch of medicine is not a hard science, but I stand by it; music is not hard science - but is good. If you read again my comment to Kevin you will see that I suggested that to teach pod students does not require a PhD, but to be a Lecturer of podiatry (which is not the same thing) is analagous to being a lecturer of anything else - you are required to teach and research - and thus one does need a PhD. Although I have been away from the UK a long time (22 years), I had thought that at one point you had an academic appointment; thus you will have understood the research/teaching balance. All of us that have (had) an academic appointment have this balance, and where we draw the line between the two is up to you and your first line manager: I have really only aimed at 2-3 publications a years, and thus think of myself as a teacher first and foremost; others , like my son-in-law, by way of example, publish 10-14 papers a year, and teach relatively little.
I am failing to understand the fuss; are we an academic profession or not? At the end of the day, there is a line in chalk in the school playground - the small boys patch, or the big boys patch: which side do you wish to play?
It may help to explain that, when I was Head of school of Pod in 1995-2000, we had a 4 year course with an imbedded honours programme. I made huge efforts to ensure that the kids that did not do honours were not made to feel inferior. I insisted that we had two streams - an academic speciality stream, and a clinical experts stream. The point being that to be a clinical expert was just as important, but different. (in Ozz, the norm is NOT a 3 year hons program)
Rob
__________________
Honorary Research Associate, Institute for Human Evolution, University of Witwatersrand
Adjunct Associate Professor (Human and Comparative Anatomy), University of Western Sydney
Fellow of The Centre For Human Biology, The University of Western Australia
"Please God, deliver me whole from Creationists......."
I am failing to understand the fuss; are we an academic profession or not? At the end of the day, there is a line in chalk in the school playground - the small boys patch, or the big boys patch: which side do you wish to play?
Rob:
By using your analagy, since I don't have a PhD, I should be playing in the small boys patch? Is that what you are intimating? So you are now saying that if a profession such as podiatry wants to be academic then it must have PhDs teaching the students since the PhDs are the big boys and all the rest of us non-PhDs are the small boys?
__________________
Sincerely,
Kevin
**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College
I am simply saying whether we like or like it not - and I do not make the rules - those schools that have the "British Model" (UK, NZ, S. Africa, Australia) are all in universities where the gold standard bench mark is a PhD. If you applied for a position in science at any of those institutions, without a PhD it would not get looked at. And, while ten years ago, or perhaps even 5 years ago (and I speak for Australia here), an appointment might have been made in podiatry (or OT, or Physio etc) without a PhD as long as there was a promise of one in the near futre - ie near completion. Now, as Simon pointed out for the Newcastle advert, a PhD was an essential criteria. These are simple facts; whether right or wrong is not the point: it is. I never men tioned American schools as they do not have what is loosely called "The Brtish Model". And apart from that, I have been to every school in the world that has "The British Model": I have only been to one US school
__________________
Honorary Research Associate, Institute for Human Evolution, University of Witwatersrand
Adjunct Associate Professor (Human and Comparative Anatomy), University of Western Sydney
Fellow of The Centre For Human Biology, The University of Western Australia
"Please God, deliver me whole from Creationists......."
I am simply saying whether we like or like it not - and I do not make the rules - those schools that have the "British Model" (UK, NZ, S. Africa, Australia) are all in universities where the gold standard bench mark is a PhD. If you applied for a position in science at any of those institutions, without a PhD it would not get looked at. And, while ten years ago, or perhaps even 5 years ago (and I speak for Australia here), an appointment might have been made in podiatry (or OT, or Physio etc) without a PhD as long as there was a promise of one in the near futre - ie near completion. Now, as Simon pointed out for the Newcastle advert, a PhD was an essential criteria. These are simple facts; whether right or wrong is not the point: it is. I never men tioned American schools as they do not have what is loosely called "The Brtish Model". And apart from that, I have been to every school in the world that has "The British Model": I have only been to one US school
Rob:
I fully realize what the models are for podiatry schools in the UK, Australia and the States. However, Rob, I asked what you meant by the statement: "At the end of the day, there is a line in chalk in the school playground - the small boys patch, or the big boys patch: which side do you wish to play?" Sounds to me like you are saying that the "big boys" are the men (and women) who have PhDs and the "small boys" are the men (and women) who don't have PhDs, which, to me, sounds rather degrading to those of us who do not have PhDs.
Never mind. I guess I will continue just being one of the "small boys" who sees no "line of chalk in the school playground", but rather decides who to play with by the intelligence, knowledge and motivation of the individual, rather than by what letters they have following their names. I just wish those people who determine who will be educating our students could show a little more reasonableness with the minimum degrees they accept for teaching and research positions so that the best faculty members can be chosen for the job, not just the few who have attained a doctor of philosophy degree.
__________________
Sincerely,
Kevin
**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College
Kevin, the analogy to the school playground was nothing to do with you - nor anyone else; my postings are never personal. To put it in context, when I was a pod student in the early 70's, and then a UK teacher of Pod until 1990 (when I left the UK for Ozz), all staff were critical of the fact that the course was in a college of higher education. In its way way a good institution, but not a university. The profession fought, eventually successfully, to have their courses in universities - fine. However that brings new set of paradigms; College of higher ed staff rarely researched or published, now the world has moved on. That is (by my analogy), we have crossed the chalk line in the school playground. But you have to cross with both feet; one cannot argue for a university course, and expect to be different from other university courses. My mentor once said to me that only real definition of education is that process which brings about a permanent change of behaviour - one cannot go back, nor can one look for exceptions - except on a purely temporary basis while staff play "catch up". Rob
__________________
Honorary Research Associate, Institute for Human Evolution, University of Witwatersrand
Adjunct Associate Professor (Human and Comparative Anatomy), University of Western Sydney
Fellow of The Centre For Human Biology, The University of Western Australia
"Please God, deliver me whole from Creationists......."
In reply to S. Spooner- my CV, professorship and professional integrity
Dear colleagues,
The following information posted on this site by Simon Spooner was recently brought to my attention,
"Personally, I went from a research assistant to lecturer to senior lecturer to principal lecturer with far fewer publications than that. A quick scan of Prof. Jim Woodburn's CV reveals 12 publications, of which he's first author on six. For the record, I've nothing against Jim, I just picked that as an example."
I've nothing against you either Simon but I'm surprised you didnt take two minutes of your time to verify your information or explain to the readership the difference between first and senior authorship. Not even a quick PubMed search?
My CV is freely available to anyone to review and it shows more that 12 publications. Moreover, the criteria for appointment at professorial level at Glasgow Caledonian University are also freely available. You are at liberty to align CV to appointment criteria and make your own mind up if I make the grade for key indicators such as publications, grants, and other scholarly activity commensurate with the post.
I'd like to make this public that I am referring this post to our professional body for consideration.
Re: In reply to S. Spooner- my CV, professorship and professional integrity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodburn
Dear colleagues,
The following information posted on this site by Simon Spooner was recently brought to my attention,
"Personally, I went from a research assistant to lecturer to senior lecturer to principal lecturer with far fewer publications than that. A quick scan of Prof. Jim Woodburn's CV reveals 12 publications, of which he's first author on six. For the record, I've nothing against Jim, I just picked that as an example."
I've nothing against you either Simon but I'm surprised you didnt take two minutes of your time to verify your information or explain to the readership the difference between first and senior authorship. Not even a quick PubMed search?
My CV is freely available to anyone to review and it shows more that 12 publications. Moreover, the criteria for appointment at professorial level at Glasgow Caledonian University are also freely available. You are at liberty to align CV to appointment criteria and make your own mind up if I make the grade for key indicators such as publications, grants, and other scholarly activity commensurate with the post.
I'd like to make this public that I am referring this post to our professional body for consideration.
Best wishes,
Professor Jim Woodburn
Jim, I'm at a loss as to why you feel it necessary to refer this post to the professional body, however, it is your prerogative. Here is the quote in context: http://www.podiatry-arena.com/podiat...4&postcount=16
As you can see Rob Kidd had stated that he felt that a senior academic position could not (nor should not) be achieved without a publication record of 40-50 papers. I was merely pointing out that senior academic position can and have been achieved with far fewer papers than this. At the time of writing the original post, I accessed your CV from your staff profile of your current employer, by typing the search terms Prof. Jim Woodburn CV into google: http://www.gcu.ac.uk/hls/staff/profjameswoodburn/ I have accessed it again today 17/10/2012. As you can see, it clearly lists you as holding the position of Professor and lists 12 publications. Which are:
"Publications
Turner DE Davys HJ Woodburn J Foot function following forefoot reconstruction in rheumatoid arthritis. Aus J Pod Med 2005;39:83-9
Helliwell PS Allen N Gilworth G Redmond A Slade A Tennant A Woodburn J Development of a foot impact scale for rheumatoid arthritis Arthritis Rheum 2005;53:418-22
Woodburn J Cornwall MW Soames RW Helliwell PS Selectively attenuating soft-tissues close to sites of inflammation in the peri-talar region of patients with rheumatoid arthritis leads to the development of pes planovalgus J Rheumatol 2005;32:268-74
Davys HJ Turner DE Helliwell PS Conaghan PG Emery P Woodburn J Debridement of plantar callosities in rheumatoid arthritis: a randomized controlled trial Rheumatology (Oxford) 2005 44: 207-210
Woodburn J Nelson KM Lohmann Siegel K Kepple TM Gerber LH Multisegment foot motion during gait: proof of concept in rheumatoid arthritis J Rheumatol 2004;31:1918-27
Goldbach-Mansky RP Woodburn J Yao L Lipsky P Magnetic Resonance Imaging in the evaluation of bone damage in patients with Rheumatoid Arthritis Arthritis Rheum 2003;48:585-9
Waxman R Woodburn H Powell M Woodburn J Blackburn S Helliwell P FOOTSTEP: A randomised controlled trial investigating the clinical and cost-effectiveness of a patient self-management programme for basic foot care in the elderly J Clin Epidemiol 2003;56:1092-9
Woodburn J Helliwell PS Barker S Changes in three-dimensional joint kinematics supports the continuous use of foot orthoses in the management of painful rearfoot deformity in rheumatoid arthritis J Rheumatol 2003;30:2356-64
Turner DE Woodburn J Helliwell PS Cornwall ME Emery P Pes planovalgus in rheumatoid arthritis: a descriptive and analytical study of foot function determined by gait analysis. Musculoskeletal Care 2003;1:21-33
Woodburn J Udupa JK Hirsch BE Wakefield RJ Helliwell PS Reay N O’Connor P Budgen A Emery P The geometrical architecture of the subtalar and midtarsal joints in rheumatoid arthritis based on MR imaging Arthritis Rheum 2002;46:3168-3177
Woodburn J Helliwell PS Barker S Three-dimensional kinematics at the ankle joint complex in rheumatoid arthritis patients with painful valgus deformity of the rearfoot Rheumatology (Oxford) 2002;41:1406-12
Woodburn J Helliwell PS Barker S A randomized controlled trial of foot orthoses in rheumatoid arthritis J Rheumatol 2002;29:1377-83"
This may or may not be out-dated, but I cannot be held responsible for Glasgow Calledonian University keeping it's staff profile pages up to date. Notwithstanding, it clearly shows that at the time this profile was published by your employer, you were a professor with 12 publications listed. Viz. it is possible to achieve a senior academic position with fewer than 40-50 publication- which was the moot point.
Now, I am not saying that you are not academically credible, nor that you do not meet the criteria for a professorial position at your institute. I am not even saying that you have not published further studies since the staff page at Glasgow was published. What and all I was saying is that Rob Kidd's contention that one should not, nor could not expect to achieve as senior academic position without 40-50 publications is plainly erroneous.
I hope this makes my position clear as it was not my intention to cause any offence to you Jim. Quite the contrary. I was defending those who may be in senior academic positions and doing a fantastic job without the 40-50 publication which Rob Kidd suggested were necessary to hold such a position.
Simon, why have you dragged me in to this? My comments in earlier posts re: 40-50 publications were based upon what I had learned from several years of sitting on academic promotions committees; those are the bench marks that I was brought to understand for appointments to the Professoriate (ie senior academic positions). The comment re: 5-6 papers a years was made by my mentor and friend, Professor Paul O'Higgins, Chair of Anatomy, HYMS, when he was applying for SL promotion in Western Australia. What I have said, I stand by as truth as I know it, to anyone. I would suggest, respectively, that if you look around universities generally, senior staff will have publications in this order, and a grant record; if they didn't they would not be there. Rob
__________________
Honorary Research Associate, Institute for Human Evolution, University of Witwatersrand
Adjunct Associate Professor (Human and Comparative Anatomy), University of Western Sydney
Fellow of The Centre For Human Biology, The University of Western Australia
"Please God, deliver me whole from Creationists......."
Simon, why have you dragged me in to this? My comments in earlier posts re: 40-50 publications were based upon what I had learned from several years of sitting on academic promotions committees; those are the bench marks that I was brought to understand for appointments to the Professoriate (ie senior academic positions). The comment re: 5-6 papers a years was made by my mentor and friend, Professor Paul O'Higgins, Chair of Anatomy, HYMS, when he was applying for SL promotion in Western Australia. What I have said, I stand by as truth as I know it, to anyone. I would suggest, respectively, that if you look around universities generally, senior staff will have publications in this order, and a grant record; if they didn't they would not be there. Rob
Because the quote needed to be put into context and it now has been. I stand by my position and will happily defend it. It was not me that was suggesting that someone could not expect promotion to a senior academic position without a publication record of 40-50 publications was it Rob? So actually, I'm incredulous that it is me that is apparently being "dragged" into this.
Um....sorry to interrupt here...but when I was at southampton uni, i was told by one of the lecturers that the teaching staff had to have a Masters degree or working towards one.....This goes back about 5 years ago Nothing was mentioned about a PhD......
Re: In reply to S. Spooner- my CV, professorship and professional integrity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodburn
Dear colleagues,
The following information posted on this site by Simon Spooner was recently brought to my attention,
"Personally, I went from a research assistant to lecturer to senior lecturer to principal lecturer with far fewer publications than that. A quick scan of Prof. Jim Woodburn's CV reveals 12 publications, of which he's first author on six. For the record, I've nothing against Jim, I just picked that as an example."
I've nothing against you either Simon but I'm surprised you didnt take two minutes of your time to verify your information or explain to the readership the difference between first and senior authorship. Not even a quick PubMed search?
My CV is freely available to anyone to review and it shows more that 12 publications. Moreover, the criteria for appointment at professorial level at Glasgow Caledonian University are also freely available. You are at liberty to align CV to appointment criteria and make your own mind up if I make the grade for key indicators such as publications, grants, and other scholarly activity commensurate with the post.
I'd like to make this public that I am referring this post to our professional body for consideration.
Best wishes,
Professor Jim Woodburn
I'd like to make public for the record that the complaint Prof. Jim Woodburn made against me was not upheld by the professional body.
Re: Student biomechanics question
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