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MSc Podiatric Biomechanics

Discussion in 'United Kingdom' started by Dawn Bacon, Apr 3, 2005.

  1. Dawn Bacon

    Dawn Bacon Active Member


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    Have any members of the forum undertaken (or are currently undertaking) the MSc in podiatric biomechanics or the PGcert in musculoskeletal diagnosis offered by Staffordshire University?

    Just looking for some informaion and would be most appreciative of any input from members.

    With many thanks,
    Poll.
     
  2. Dawn Bacon

    Dawn Bacon Active Member

    Well 70 views but no replies. It would seem that this is not a popular course!
     
  3. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    Hi Polly,
    I'm happy to comment, but have not done the course, which I understand is open to physios and other selected health professionals as well as pods?

    Because podiatric biomechanics is not an exact science it is difficult to see how one can do an MSc in this subject. I can quite see however, that you can do an MSc based around a lengthy research project, + some gait analysis, + some standard teaching and archive material on podiatric biomech, with some filler material thrown in. I'm just not sure that this truthfully represents an MSc in Podiatric Biomech.

    It may be worth looking at going down another route and doing an MSc or MPhil by research? My own experience, and that of colleagues who have done this, is that there are definite benefits in being exposed to learning outside of the UK podiatric community.

    Regards,
    David
     
  4. Lawrence Bevan

    Lawrence Bevan Active Member

    The full title of the award is CLINICAL Pod Biomech and thus encapsulates all the art side as well as science side.
     
  5. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    Hi Laurence,
    I'm not sure how CLINICAL encapsulates the arts side as well, but happy to be corrected, and pleased to have another contributor to this thread :)
    Regards,
    David
     
  6. Lawrence Bevan

    Lawrence Bevan Active Member

    David

    Not flamming you! Just so you know!

    What I meant was I see your point re the difficulty in making a Master of Science out of a subject field distinctly lacking in that (if we read science as quantitative number-crunching data type stuff)

    However the degree is about clinical stuff such as pt assessment with hands-on skills as much as lab based assessment. Whilst there is a module in "tissue stress" which involves lab based investigation of phenomenon such as stress-strain there is also a module on "therapies" which requires reflection on the effectiveness of all the treatments a Pod may use such as exercises, footwear, bracing and orthoses. How do theses work is considered from in a theoretical "mechanics" sense as well as how they perform and are recieved clinically in a "real world" sense.
     
  7. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    Thanks for explaining that, Laurence.
    Is there a chunky research project included too? :eek: :eek:
     
  8. Bob Longworth

    Bob Longworth Welcome New Poster

    I obtained the MSc in Clinical Podiatric Biomechanics at Stafford Uni last year & can highly recommend it. When I started it, you had to be State Registered to do it - I guess now you have to be an AHP Podiatrist. The course was set up by the PBG (Podiatric Biomechanics Group) with the modules written and taught by various members.

    There are six modules which each run over 2 weekends. There then follows self directed research in order to obtain the MSc.

    Now that the UK profession (AHP Podiatrists) encompasses a varied range of abilities, this MSc is important for Podiatrists and employers who want Musculoskeletal specialists.

    Cheers

    Bob
     
  9. chris cullen

    chris cullen Member

    hello polly

    regards the information that you require.

    first of all you have to ask why you would want to start the course in the first place.

    mine was that i didn't really understand the subject matter with only very limited experience of conducting biomechanical examinations and also very limited opportunity to conduct them.

    since finsihing the course, well still got the do the research work, i have gained more knowledge on the subject that i have put into practice in the clinic. things make sense now. i can know JUSTIFY my treatments. i have the knowledge and experence now too move further above the lower limb and will refer to our colleagues in the Physiotherpy world with the knowledge that its not a podiatry concern ie possible nueral tension, the "core stability" and not an inappropreate referral. likewise physiotherapists refer to me when they feel that it requires a podiatry input or that its a podiatry concern rather than physio.

    i can quite freely give talks to physio's without batting an eyelide.

    GP's ring me now inquiring what Podiatry Biomechanics is. i can give an instant reply.

    could i have done this without the MSC. i very much doubt it.

    in the uk we have very few leaders within the field. soon we will have many. this will take time. without the msc this would not be possible as it brings same thinking minds together and different views that must be argued using research as an arguementative base.

    some people on the course may have wanted to put vast experince together and bring it altogether, and maybe iron out some errors that have crept in. but i bet they have learnt from the course as well. good for them.

    some people may simply want an msc that related to their clinical practice. good for them.

    some may have been ambitous and wanted to forward their career. good for them.

    the msc brings together people from different experinces of the subject. that has to be applauded. the people behind the msc had the ambition to get the course together. they didn't have to do it.

    most people who have completed a large selection of the modules will all feel that it has improved there clinical skills, some naturally wont, but what the hell, the majority will have felt the benefit.

    also its a good laugh at the weekends. you may find it strange but there are no "anoraks" that i've met on the course. and no i dont think you can call be an "anorak".

    somebody else that put a reply that there are other courses outside the podiatry world. well yes. if you feel that you have the knowledge to start these courses then go ahead and post treads regarding those courses.

    if you feel you require the knowledge, sounds like a taxi course, then do the course.

    chris

    ps if people dont reply to treads it doesn't mean that its not an important course or people aint interested. this could be labeled against you for not repling to the replies.

    the choice is yours. good luck in what ever you decide.
     
  10. Dawn Bacon

    Dawn Bacon Active Member

    Dear Chris, Bob, David and Lawrence,

    Thankyou so much for your input on this subject. The information and personal experiences are much appreciated.

    I think on balance that I will pursue my interest in this course which covers an important area of podiatric practice about which I am keen to learn more. Before taking "the plunge" it is often helpful to explore the experiences of people who have completed or are undertaking the course as well as those of practitioners who have utilised different pathways.

    With many thanks, Poll.
     
  11. chris cullen

    chris cullen Member

    polly

    good luck.

    i'm sure you'll enjoy the experience.

    chris
     
  12. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    Hi Chris,
    Didn't you say you still have to do the research element :eek: :eek: ?

    Regards,
    David
     
  13. chris cullen

    chris cullen Member

    david

    yes still have that to do.

    still thinking of what to do.

    chris
     
  14. dmdon

    dmdon Active Member

    Hi all

    This is where I display my ignorance (not for the first time), but in a situation such as podiatry, beyond bachelor degree level, surely the only benefit for a masters is on reseach basis. A taught masters would be purely..............academic!?!? :confused:

    Cheers

    DavidD
     
  15. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    Hi Dave,
    No, an MSc generally has a high taught element.
    Although to confuse things still further, I did a research MSc with no taught element, whilst a colleague did a similar research degree, only his was called an MPhil!
    Regards,
    David
     
  16. chris cullen

    chris cullen Member

    DmDon wrote: "This is where I display my ignorance (not for the first time), but in a situation such as podiatry, beyond bachelor degree level, surely the only benefit for a masters is on reseach basis. A taught masters would be purely..............academic!?!?"



    um, we may be splitting hairs here.

    take "taught" as "lecturers" or "fascilitators" or "module leaders".

    hence each module will have "lecturers" or "fascilitators" or "module leaders".
    we then will have had certain tasks during the weekend, this may result in a presentation for the following week end. all good fun. this must be based upon evidence based research.

    all this must be eventually written up, using research to base arguements.

    during the tasks we may actually perform or discuss as a group a possible clinical podiatric biomechanical treatment. we will then have to search for evidence of this technique and its success rate etc.

    hence like the podiatry degree course in certain parts we have to go off and discover the research ourselves, however with the title of the "write up" we can look for related acticles. er say "treatment of tendonosis of achilles tendon."

    therefore it may well be academic but also practical. :p

    chris

    ps Apologies for spelling
     
  17. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    Thanks for clarifying that Chris.
    So there you have it Dave.
    On the other hand, if you do a MSc/MPhil by research you are very much thrown in at the deep end - you may attend a couple of lectures on statistics (I know I needed to :) !), but apart from seeing a Supervisor every so often, you just get on with it.

    One other thing touched on by Bob Longworth - a higher degree will open some doors. In my practice I have most of my biomech patients referred from orthopaedics and pod surgeons - a situation which never really happened before I reached MSc-level. In the NHS an MSc is regarded as "gold standard" for specialist level posts, and I believe as time goes on more and more of these posts will be available to MSc-level and above only.

    Chris - are you looking for research :eek: topics or ideas?
    I have a couple I 'd be happy to share.
    Regards,
    David
     
  18. chris cullen

    chris cullen Member

    davidh

    go on then.

    chris
     
  19. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    Chris,
    You could do worse than looking at how circadian variation or diurnal variation might (well, does actually :) ) invalidate any degree-increment measurements taken during podiatric biomech examination.
    Check out
    http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0143-0815/5/2/001
    for starters.

    Porf Unsworth was my supervisor at Uni of Durham, Ian Haslock is Consultant Rheumatologist and approved SCP referee for published works in Pod Now and it's sister publication.
    Cheers,
    David
     
  20. dmdon

    dmdon Active Member

    Hi Chris and David

    Thanks for the information and the insight, I see the understanding in what you have said.

    Cheers

    DavidD
     
  21. chris cullen

    chris cullen Member

    davidh

    "You could do worse than looking at how circadian variation or diurnal variation might (well, does actually ) invalidate any degree-increment measurements taken during podiatric biomech examination.
    Check out
    http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0143-0815/5/2/001
    for starters.

    Porf Unsworth was my supervisor at Uni of Durham, Ian Haslock is Consultant Rheumatologist and approved SCP referee for published works in Pod Now and it's sister publication."

    well yes.

    from an assessment angle it would be interesting. however the problem would be how to link this into general assessment ie having patients assessments to be carried out at the same time day. ie would the results be practical rather than something that should be taken into consideration?

    if orthotics were prescribed would the patient have to have am, pm orthotics?

    this may be taken as me taking the ..... but if there is fatigue involved then maybe this is the case.

    from the depths of my memory i had a patient whose symptoms did not respond to orthotics. i then managed to gain access to a pressure mat.

    while i was writting some notes up i asked the patient to start walking up and down the room while walking on the mat. after about 2 minutes then results went from fairly normal foot strike, midstance and propulsion to forefoot strike. surprised by this i asked her to continue. the forefoot strike continue after about 4 minutes.

    so what the hell has this got to do with it? bench, static and gait assessment hadn't shown anything however after she started a long walk there were changes in her loading. fatigue had crept in.

    maybe i hadn't asked the right questions?

    however measuring fatigue maybe a consideration in assessment. in a sports person this could be related to nutriution, training etc but with a "normal" person in assessment this may not only be interesting but maybe of practical use.

    ok you may say muscle strength testing, but dont we do this on the bench? and not after use?

    anyway,

    this could be more effective to patients with possible neurological disease/conditions, say parkinson's. there should again be is a fatigue factor related.

    one thing i've noticed generally with parkinson's patients is that when they attend for general nail/callus treatment that when i touch the feet the parkinson shake goes? anybody else noticed this or is it my imagination.

    anyway, davidh, although your suggestion may not have set my heart going with realtion to that particular subject it has allowed me to use the "buzz words" in "lateral thinking", and possibily a topic.

    thanks


    chris

    ps any other ideas from anybody before i ask Mr Nachi for advice.

    pps there is a biomechanics conference at staffordshire uni at the end of the month (april) for any of people reading who may be interested.
     
  22. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    Hi Chris,

    Circadian variation is much more significant than simple fatigue.
    Unsworth et al quote two other examples, with refs. Rectal temperature (now there's one to ponder!) falls during the night and is at it's lowest in the early hours of the morning. Temperatures from the tip of the middle finger show a reversal of this pattern.
    Coming closer to home (or feet), I did some work on Diurnal variation (12, as opposed to 24-hour variation) and found measurable differences of up to 9 degrees in frontal plane motion at the ankle joint complex (n = 7) in subjects measured every 2 hours. Ther was no appreciable pattern to this (ie the joints did not become looser or stiffer over a 12-hour period, but just measured different ROM. I used a purpose-built rig which held the leg and foot quite rigidly, with a floating footplate allowing me to apply a measured amount of torque each time.

    Really the essence of this is not that pts need different orthoses for am/pm, but rather more importantly, that it seems to invalidate taking measurements.

    I would go as far as to suggest that once we accept that circadian/diurnal variation exists, we may want to acknowledge that biomech is not an exact science, and measuring our patients in degree-based increments is not accurate. A little bit of generalisation may be usefully employed to describe certain conditions (ie Equinus may be broken down into comp or uncomp, but why not then just leave it like that?).
    Cheers,
    Davidh
     
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