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The disturbing Dr.'s or so they say

Discussion in 'Break Room' started by footfan, Jan 14, 2011.

  1. footfan

    footfan Active Member


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    Ive been perusing my girlfriends girly magazine "more" you know the type- makeup, relationship advice , star signs the usual drivel, and happened to come across the expert sections.

    Firstly a no doubt competent personal trainer talking about running advice (the whole reason i read the article) he gave sound advice such as running in the same shoes for training and marathons ect. but then i read the "life coach" and "sex and relationship" "experts" advice, what a load of rubbish. I got bored so i followed up thier Dr. titles, this is where the fun started it turns out she doesnt even have a Science degree but an arts degree and has a Phd looking into the effects of pornography.

    Does anyone else get annoyed by claims like these, that they present themselves to the lay person as a DR. ???
     
  2. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    Jon,

    If someone has completed a PhD then they are fully entitled to use the title of Dr.
     
  3. Like Gillian Mckeith. Or to give her her full medical title, Gillian McKeith.
     
  4. footfan

    footfan Active Member

    Ian,
    I completely agree but I personally feel its misleading to the lay person because they may not understand that although a Phd is a huge acaedemic acheivement and it is evidence this person has made a contribution to thier field of research, they are still not medically trained and therefore not what the lay know as a doctor. If everyone knew what a doctorate was it would be fine but they dont . Even when im on rotation with consultant pod surgeons i get asked how long i have left in medical school, i quickly inform them im not medical as i dont think its fair to let them believe i am.

    but thats just me, just wondered what you guys thought because your all doing "real" research and then you have people getting Phd's in some rediculous social sciences, i personally dont feel the two are comparable, we were taught that research is judged on its contribution to current understanding

    thoughts very much appreciated guys
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2011
  5. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    Jon,

    If memory serves me correctly the title doctor is historically an academic title (think its Latin or Greek for 'teaching' or 'learning'). The fact that the lay public may link it to a medical doctor or physician is just the way things are - I wouldn't get too worked up about it. A PhD shows an incredible dedication to your field and a contribution to the knowledge base of that field. The definition of what 'real' research is will be subjective - I don't think it's fair to comment as you have as above. If that research significantly contibutes to the current understanding of pornography then is it of less worth than a PhD contributing to the understanding of lower limb mechanics? To Podiatrists maybe, but not to sexual therapists perhaps.

    Jon, if you completed a PhD and then put Dr on your letterheads and business cards (don't tell me you wouldn't) then is this misleading your patients?
     
  6. W J Liggins

    W J Liggins Well-Known Member

    Ian is absolutely right.

    The 'real' doctor is the PhD (even in the effects of pornography - must make a note to read up!). The medical profession, at least in the U.K. is largely made up of BMedBSurg and are not 'doctors' at all. This is worth remembering when Orthopaedic Surgeons (definition - straightens children) grandly pronounce that the title Podiatric Surgeon is misleading the public into thinking they are medical doctors. The Orthopaedic Surgeons are probably not MDs anyway!

    All the best

    Bill
     
  7. bob

    bob Active Member

    It is an interesting discussion Jon. There is no right answer that will satisfy all patients or all clinicians. If you choose to head down the surgery route, or if you choose to go into private practice with a big sign outside your door saying 'PODIATRIST' or even 'CHIROPODIST' you will still have an element of patients that will call you doctor. Instead or feeling as though these patients are being misled, you could take it as an opportunity to promote podiatry, podiatric surgery, etc...

    I may be wrong, but your statement that you don't think it is fair to let people believe you are medical seems quite negative to me. I'm a podiatric surgeon. I have not completed an MD. I am proud that I'm in the best position to deal with foot and ankle pathology and will tell any patient the same. I recognise my limitations (I hope), and I do not and did not want to head down the MD/ orthopaedic route. If you do become a podiatric surgeon, you'll realise that one of the most important things that makes you a good foot and ankle surgeon is experience of foot and ankle surgery. Can MD's say they have as much foot and ankle specific training as me? No they can't. I recognise that there are varying levels of informed patients, some of whom specifically seek out podiatric surgeons for the reasons that I have stated. Others may not know the difference between me and an orthopaedic surgeon and some just do not care. When you inevitably get a complaint or get sued, you can bet that an expert witness statement from your local orthopod will mention that you are not a doctor in a similar negative way. My response to this is to agree with them and point out the relevance of this statement to the overall case (absolutely none).

    Many podiatric surgeons make a point of providing their patients with information regarding the training of podiatric surgeons prior to offering an operation. I am not so sure that this is a positive step for the profession as a whole (how many other healthcare professionals do you go to see who attempt to tell you who they are or who they are not before you get treated?) and I feel that better publicity for the profession should be driven by PR departments of organisations such as SCP (similar to dentistry and the BDA - if you have a problem with your teeth, you do not immediately think that you need to see your GP for referral to an oral surgeon, you will most likely see a dentist).

    People who complete PhD's get a research degree essentially. No matter how specific it is to their job at hand, it is not the same as a professional doctorate or an MD. Bill has already explained the bachelor's degrees that many medics have. All of these qualifications grant the title of doctor in one way or another, but they are all different beasts. Notice that I refrain from saying one is any better than the other - they are not, they are merely different. Does being a doctor make you better at treating someone than I can? No. Being more knowledgeable, more experienced and gifted makes you better at treating patients than I can.

    Interestingly, the SCP recently published a statement that its members who hold PhD's or professorships need to provide their full title (eg. Dr John Smith PhD, as opposed to Dr John Smith) probably to attempt to avoid any confusion. I can see the argument for this, but I wonder what inspired this recent move?
     
  8. footfan

    footfan Active Member

    If i were ever to do a Phd i honestly wouldnt use the title,(my brother in law is a general surgeon- he'd just laugh at it) most people i know and see on a daily basis just introduce themselves as "hi im joe bloggs, the physio" ect. to be honest i think ive taken this a bit far i just worried about impressionable young girls being given "expert" advice in these magazines.


    On a podiatry point I have alot of respect for researchers who dont do a formal Phd but still provide alot of papers. Im not sure if craig payne has a Phd but he produces amazing research all the time which i use everyday in my clinical practice.
     
  9. footfan

    footfan Active Member

    hi Bob,

    I think you make some great points and i agree on nearly all of them, There is no doubt in my mind what so ever as to the level of training and competency of Podiatric surgeons ( Ive been in theatre with two consultants in the last 12 months) you guys do an amazing job, I think the society always works 10 years behind everyone else in the real world (regarding publicity) and we had a discussion a while back about how just wearing a tie and shirt gets alot of pods more respect on wards (again how far is this misleading to patients?) .

    a similar finding is people generally dont know the difference between a pschologist and a psychiatrist, one is a medically qualified doctor with full prescription rights the other has a masters degree.

    I think we should do a foundation year like dentists and follow the medical model, DR. Kilmartin proposed this but i dont think anything came of it.

    Thanks for your thoughts guys

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/london/hi/tv_and_radio/newsid_8400000/8400189.stm This may annoy some of the pod surgeons. I think the media took sides very quickly when making this
     
  10. bob

    bob Active Member

    Hello Jon,

    It's a bit of a strange discussion really. Do doctors have a monopoly on the shirt an tie? Or do you get more respect simply because you look a bit smarter than if you have the old chiropody tunic on? I know there are people out there who may consider that a podiatrist entering a ward with a shirt and tie on more closely resembles a doctor, but this is probably only because the general public presumes that wards are populated with doctors and nurses predominantly. I am sure some of the female podiatrists on here have been called 'nurse' more than once by patients on wards, but this shows the general ignorance of the patient regarding who is treating them more than anything else. Perhaps we should walk around with a big sign on us saying that we are not doctors? And orthopods can walk around with big signs on them saying that they are not podiatric surgeons? Personally, I find a short sleeve shirt with no tie is the most comfortable way of abiding by infection control standards when on the ward.

    Old news. The media (the notoriously objective BBC in this case) went looking for a juicy story and patched a series of statements from the (then) Dean of the Faculty of Podiatric Surgery together to form parts that report, along with all the other entirely objective opinions (heavy sarcasm). Of course, I am very biased being on the sharp end of the underlying point of that report, but it certainly made me re-think my approach to the media. It would not have been a very interesting story if they reported that there are simply different healthcare providers out there operating on people's feet.
     
  11. W J Liggins

    W J Liggins Well-Known Member

    Hi Jon

    If I had a PhD I probably wouldn't use the title either but only because in the UK surgeons (Podiatric or otherwise) are termed 'Mr'. I would certainly have it in my passport, because you can sometimes get 'bumped up' into 1st class on 'planes!

    I'm afraid that if I had a PhD and your brother-in-law laughed at it, I would simply ask him in what discipline does he hold a doctrate? Probably nothing, and then I'd laugh him to scorn. It's reasonable to suppose that he doesn't have even a Masters degree! You could ask him and let us know how he replied.

    All the best

    Bill
     
  12. W J Liggins

    W J Liggins Well-Known Member

    Hi Jon

    As a P.S.

    A science graduate asks 'Why?' An engineering graduate asks' How?' An economics graduate asks' How much?' An arts graduate asks 'Do you want fries with your burger?'

    (Soon to embark on a Medieval history MA [if I can afford it])

    Bill
     
  13. footfan

    footfan Active Member

    Hi Bill,

    LOL you know what medical surgeons are like, they love thier banter. Hes in London ATM for his new job so wont see him for a while, but ill ask,when i spoke to him last he said i had it easy because his next exam was costing him over £1000 to sit...................... i just thank god i never decided to do medicine.
     
  14. footfan

    footfan Active Member

    lol quality bill!!! ill remeber that, i did never understand why people spend £9000 doing a performing arts degree to become a waiter??? You can do performing arts at college for free????
     
  15. W J Liggins

    W J Liggins Well-Known Member

    You're right Jon

    I can never understand them going to college when after a night at the pub I can out-joke, out-sing and out-dance the lot of them!

    Bill
     
  16. blinda

    blinda MVP

    I can vouch for that!
     
  17. W J Liggins

    W J Liggins Well-Known Member

    Hi Bel

    Thanks, but if you really believe that, then you must have been well over the 8 also!

    Bill
     
  18. twirly

    twirly Well-Known Member

    Me too ;)
     
  19. What was the point of this thread?

    Was the green eyed monster running loose?

    Dr. Simon K. Spooner;)

    It's on my passport and driving license. I earned it and I'm entitled to use it. Get a copy of the OED and look up PhD. I've never knowingly mislead anyone. Next...
     
  20. footfan

    footfan Active Member

    I just read some rediculous advice in my gf's "girly" magazine and thought id chase up thier qualifications, and it got me angry that the lay person wouldnt know they arnt actually doctors because this perticular advice was on sexually transmitted diseases.

    Im not jealous just worried about other professions misleading people. Especially when she didnt even have a science degree, it was Arts degree. Her Phd was on the effects of pornography on society.
     
  21. Griff

    Griff Moderator

  22. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    So you say:D.

    Bill L - good luck with the MA - have you finally registered:eek:
     
  23. footfan

    footfan Active Member

    Ian,

    That guy is a disgrace, he deserves a serious punishment, this is what i meant origionally about protecting the lay perosn, if it wasnt for a professional athlete who complained the other victims never would have questioned him just because he said he was a doctor!!

    =(
     
  24. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    Obviously I agree that the public need to be protected from sexual predators like this chap. Clearly a case of someone duping the public with false crudentials for their own ill means. In my opinion this is a true case of a "disturbing doctor, (or so he claimed to be)".

    However, I still don't think you can use it as an example of the point you originally tried to make though Jon. It's a bit different to someone offering free advice in a magazine on a subject in which they hold a doctorate isn't it!?
     
  25. bob

    bob Active Member

  26. footfan

    footfan Active Member

    Yes i see your point , case closed :hammer:
     
  27. Griff (Ian), you can either breathe now, or ask him what he's benching... maybe challenge him to a bench off?
     
  28. RobinP

    RobinP Well-Known Member

    I think we are missing the point of this discussion are we not?

    It is possible to do a PHd on the effects of pornography.....
     
  29. footfan

    footfan Active Member

    lol :boxing::boxing::boxing:
     
  30. footfan

    footfan Active Member

  31. What do you bench these days, Jon?
     
  32. yeah, you can even do a PhD on bunions...:bash:
    Can you imagine how daft that sounds to someone doing their PhD on "singularities".

    I once read one called "An eye witness account of Moby Dick". Make of that what you will.
     
  33. footfan

    footfan Active Member

    At the moment Designing Clinical Research and Vol. 3 Foot and Lower Extremity Biomechanics .........lol so not much. My clinical medicine is pretty heavy though.

    Simon why did you not choose to call your schools degree Podiatric Medicine in the end? interested after you commented on it in the other thread

    Regards


    Jon
     
  34. Because I didn't think about it until afterwards....About 220 is the answer you're looking for.
     

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