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Dennis,

If you`re bored now, why not use this time to make a reply to my questions raised here?

Please?

__________________
Just a rock `n roll refugee.

If...

Robert:

In saying that you have visited my work on Foot Typing, I refer you to the posting of September 2008 where Newsbot published my patent application of 2006.
In the middle of the post it states:

The Rearfoot SERM position refers to the position the Rearfoot Joint assumes in open chain, i.e., when not weighted on the ground, with reference to a bisection of the lower one third of the leg after applying a strong inversion force upon the Calcaneus until it can no longer move. This is performed by inverting the foot so that it can no longer move, followed by determining whether the position is inverted or everted. If the Rearfoot Joint is tilted toward the medial arch, the Rearfoot SERM position is inverted. If the Rearfoot Joint is tilted toward the lateral arch, the Rearfoot SERM position is everted

[0030]The Rearfoot PERM position refers to the position that the Subtalar Joint assumes in open chain with reference to a bisection of the lower one third of the leg after applying a strong eversion force upon the Calcaneous until it can no longer move. This is done by everting the foot until it can no longer move, followed by determining whether the position is inverted, vertical or everted. If the Subtalar Joint is tilted toward the medial column, the Rearfoot PERM position is inverted. If the Subtalar Joint is vertical to the ground, the Rearfoot PERM is perpendicular. And if the Subtalar Joint is tilted toward the medial arch, the Rearfoot PERM position is everted.

As the foot typing that you have been associating with me examines the patient standing in parallel stance"" and my science uses an open chain evaluation that has closed chain implications, I can start to understand why, from the beginning, you have been less then kind when reviewing it.

Robert:
Perhaps you could source the foot typing method that you have been referencing for these 3.5 years?

I tried to examine a patient yesterday and was stymied as to who could have proposed such an ignorant, useless, pointless system to be considered here on The Arena.
I for one would rather like to echo your sentiments once we find the person responsible for this foot typing method that you based your opinions on.

and in addition, I invite you to examine-visit-test functional foot typing using the current available material in its entirety and start fresh raising questions to me either privately or publicly as you go.

Newspaper Headline:
There's A Woman Giving Birth In America Every 14 Minutes: If We Can Find Her, We Can Solve The Current Population Problem

Dennis

Hope I'm not pre empting Robert here but:

Dennis, what then is the difference between finding the perm and serm and to measuring the range of motion of the STJ in degrees relative to the rear shank bisection? E.G. STJ RoM = 25dgs inversion and 8dgs eversion or 30dgs inversion 0dgs eversion etc etc. Except of course that the latter is far more informative and precise!!
The former is easier to categorise of course (if we ignore the difficulty of defining boundary limits as per Simon S explained earlier) and as we know easier is better IF YOU'RE A HALF WIT!

While your kids are happy with Jumbo Leggo to make a rough approximation of a jet plane, ours are quite at home with Advanced 3D Scale Modeling kits with precision made parts.

Regards Dave

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Descartes seems to consider here that beliefs formed by pure reasoning are less doubtful than those formed through perception.

I see your point.

Mine is to simply easier to categorize as you state.

The practitioners become more precise as they practice.

As I've stated all along, mine is a starting platform with its "more precise " method but any "more precise" method can be pasted in.

Dennis

I see your point.

Mine is to simply easier to categorize as you state.

The practitioners become more precise as they practice foot centering as with any other interpersonally adaptable method.

As I've stated all along, mine is a starting platform for biomechanics with its "more precise " method recommended in foot centering but any "more precise" method can be pasted in.

Dennis

the only disappointment for me is that these same questions could and should have been raised three+ years ago instead of focusing on the imperfectons and weaknesses of my work (and others).

Sorry. Missed the last one.

Yeah, As David said my issues with FFT have never been whether it was WB or non WB. The Non WB adds another potential for error, but thats not the biggest deal in the world. Vertical is an established constant (my Iphone finds it nicely) wheras the bisection of a leg is an inaccurate business at best.

Not my biggest problem with the model by any means.

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Robert Isaacs
Specialist in Biomechanical Therapies
www.Footprintspodiatrysolutions.co.uk

small, yellow, leech-like, and probably the oddest thing in the universe

Semper in excretum sum sed alta variat

from October 7, 2008
I'll admit that I did not specifically criticize the use of the heel bisection, but I did talk about measurement accuracy. We didn't even need to talk about how hard you push will change the measurement, determining the heel bisection is an even bigger problem. Of course, being able to repeat the measurements is still useless if they do not change the treatment.

Eric

One of the nice thing about tissue stress is that you don't always need a high level of accuracy. If you diagnose a problem that is related to a high pronation moment from the ground, you can then attempt to decrease the pronation moment from the ground. The advantage of tissue stress is that it provides a logical approach to the method of treatment.

Determining heel bisection is a snip compared to determining the bisection of the lower 1/3 of the leg! But we're back into the minutiae. There are bigger issues here. Lets pretend we live in a world where such tests are believable.

This sentence

Fascinates me. Enough truth to be interesting, enough generalisation to be frustrating, a dash of tautology, A bit of terminology which needs translating, the core of FFT (it seems) and a lot in common with a few other paradigms, both overt and the guilty ones we all have ingrained, contradictory and yet... interesting.

I'd rather talk about that than measurment error. We know heel bisections are poo, leg bisections doubly so. Thats not really in dispute is it? Anyone?

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Robert Isaacs
Specialist in Biomechanical Therapies
www.Footprintspodiatrysolutions.co.uk

small, yellow, leech-like, and probably the oddest thing in the universe

Semper in excretum sum sed alta variat

If you don't need accuracy, why are you asking me to be accurate?

Let's leave it as I don't always need to be accurate either.

Dennis

Dennis, most of my criticisms were not about your accuracy, although it is a problem because a change in treatment is supposed to be based on them. So, using your method you do need to be accurate. Most of my criticisms were more about your logic. That's the part of my post that you cut. Tissue stress provides a logical process for altering your treatment based on your diagnosis and or physical exam measurements. What's the logic on basing a treatment on SERM? Any treatment? How do you alter your orthotics for one foot type as opposed to another?

Eric

When you have to be accurate to the nearest Identify-the-knackered-structure the measurements are less important. When 3 or 4 degrees will change the prescription in a measurement with a composite tester error of 6 or 10 its much more so.

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Robert Isaacs
Specialist in Biomechanical Therapies
www.Footprintspodiatrysolutions.co.uk

small, yellow, leech-like, and probably the oddest thing in the universe

Semper in excretum sum sed alta variat

Anyone else feel it's just plain rude to keep a lady hanging like this after she took the time to craft such well thought out questions?

__________________
"If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance." - Orville Wright

David G. Wedemeyer, D.C., C.Ped.

that would make some sense to me if you had ever visited my work.

What's the difference between open chain and closed?

Dennis

Not interesting enough to visit my work Robert!

Dennis

I think many of us and certainly I have visited your work extensively, I have read and reread everything you have published and made public because I thought at first maybe you have something. BUT! there is nothing more than a dumbing down of Root, renaming some of the definitions that you choose to use in FFT and instead of starting from Sub Talar Neutral your reference is rearfoot bisection vertical, where vertical means parallel to the posterior tibial or shank longitudinal bisection.

Instead of ranges of motion of the rearfoot and forefoot you have replaced that with PERM and SERM. The difference between the two is like having an itinerary for a bus journey and one tells the direction of travel from start to destination and all the towns between, the the distances and times to each one, the other only says we go we stop somewhere we arrive somewhere, sometime.

Plus you add a range of acronyms like TIP (The Inclined Posture)and FEJA (Functional Equinovarus of the Joints of the Ankle) and all neatly tied of in a bag called FLEB (Functional Lower Extremity Biomechanics). None of the functions that these acronyms encompass are anything new, rather just well known functions renamed.

This is the full extent of you new biomechanics paradigm that you claim is so radically different from Root but is really just Root for Dummies who can't be bothered to learn Root. Ultimately its so Dumbed that it just plain wrong.

It is so dumbed down that it can be fully explained on 4 pages as it is here is this book http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=i...serm&f=fal se Principles of Diabetes Mellitus by Lenord Poretsky

or here http://www.podiatrytoday.com/article/7628?page=2 in Podiatry Today


Dave

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Descartes seems to consider here that beliefs formed by pure reasoning are less doubtful than those formed through perception.

Sigh. I visited it. I didn't find much to like. Did I become an expert in it? No, why would I? I know very little about crystal healing for much the same reasons. You probably know very little about the practice of trepanning, but enough to know you don't fancy it. I visited Slough once. Didn't much like it. Couldn't tell you the name of the street I visited, but I can tell you it wasn't very nice.

You have the most extraordinary way of advertising your model Dennis. You post prolifically on it (I'm being polite here) perhaps a little more than your audience wants to hear. Then, when asked questions about it, you get pouty that people are not more intimately familier with it already! I'm confused, I really am. If you don't want to answer questions about your model, why ARE you actually here? To tell people to go read it for themselves? Does it really take so many words to do that?

__________________
Robert Isaacs
Specialist in Biomechanical Therapies
www.Footprintspodiatrysolutions.co.uk

small, yellow, leech-like, and probably the oddest thing in the universe

Semper in excretum sum sed alta variat

David:
1.You are so entitled to have your opinion of my work after reading and re-reading it. I get it.

Some who visit it say that it is more understandable and teachable than Root. I guess they are the "Dummies" that you refer to.

Some of them are MD's, patients and ancillary and adjacent professionals who have tried to understand Root and SALRE and Tissue Stress applications and can't. Some are podiatrosts, many are podiatry students in America.

They feel there is a need for new acronyms and definitions. Something they can understand and build on.

Biomechanics is a misspelling on word (and on The Arena). Prefacing it with Functional Lower Extremity makes biomechanics more understandable from lets say the biomechanics of the tennis swing.

The text you quote where biomechanics was "Dummied Down" is a medical text used at many major teaching universities, fellowships and residencies internationally. It is on its second printing and has been referenced many, many times.
Dr. Poretsky changes 16 of the chapters authors for the second printing and kept me on as The Diabetic Foot author.

Who else on the biomechanics map can claim such an accomplishment?

I continue to thank The Arena as part of my educational process and whether you believe it or not, I sell tissue stress every day that I practice, lecture or publish.

You're too busy being angry to see that.

Dennis

I guess its because you believed SERM-PERM testing to be performed closed chain when it is not that makes me believe that your visit was mostly imagined and certainly not tested.

It's kind of like testing out a car and driving it in reverse gear to go forward.

After that test drive, you might honestly say:
"I visited it. I didn't find much to like. Did I become an expert in it? No, why would I? I know very little about crystal healing for much the same reasons. You probably know very little about the practice of trepanning, but enough to know you don't fancy it. I visited Slough once. Didn't much like it. Couldn't tell you the name of the street I visited, but I can tell you it wasn't very nice".

Dennis

Take 10 patients and foot type them then opine.

Dennis

When Robert went to Slough and didn't like it, he didn't dislike it for itself but because he had been to much better places. Like your system, Its a bit rubbish when compared to anything or anywhere else. But if that's where you live and have grown up I am sure that there are many fine things to say about Slough just as you do about FLEB or Neoteric Biomechanics (not a misnomer here is it) or FFT or Foot Centring or wellness biomechanics (not another misnomer ) how many more names do you have for your system that you sell for $400 dollars value plus some felt pads that appear to do the same as your orthoses. FFT so good you named it 6 times at least. They only named New York twice and that beats the pants off Slough.
Imagine if Slough named themselves 3 times and called all their roads boulevards and 42nd street and the local recreation ground, central park. Might sound impressive but when you took the time and spent the money to go there, imagine how disappointed you'de when it was nothing like NY. You would just have to tell your friends it all just a sham.

Dave

__________________
Descartes seems to consider here that beliefs formed by pure reasoning are less doubtful than those formed through perception.

Yawn.

I have one other name that I have just applied for a trademark.
Bio-Kinetic Solutions

Dennis

An excellent post drsha.

As a life long pronator there is nothing I enjoy more than a good pronate around the house before bedtime.

Barry:

Even though I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic or not (no?), I would love to try to prove a point here with you as the subject.

If you are not comfortable with continuing the dialogue that I am about to write, no problem.

But for once, on The Arena, lets just have some fartlek fun.

As it seems that you are referencing pronation as "bad", where is your pathology?
Where does your pronation live?
In other words, let's diagnostically try to find out where your underlying weaknesses live because so far, you have not stated any pain, injury or suffering and so, theoreticcaly, you are "PreTS".

As a lifelong "pronator", and using the standard definition that Isaac and Skinner state live internationally of pronation , where does your pronation live?

Dennis

In the future, if you actually thought a postiing was good, Click on the Thanks button to the right of each posting )you can delete it later if you think you made a mistake). This way, all know that you felt the posting worthy of inspection.

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Descartes seems to consider here that beliefs formed by pure reasoning are less doubtful than those formed through perception.

I’ve been purposely avoiding any further interaction with certain posters because I feel that the level of discourse has diminished to the point where this is no longer a professional forum and these are no longer debates but long running infomercials for patented products and the cult-like ramblings of certain barefoot advocates.

When I ran across this thread and Dennis begging for a “thanks” from Barry Onion, my bile duct went into overdrive and a sustained gag reflex was elicited. How pathetic and shameful, a new low for the “worst of Podiatry-Arena”.

Seriously, when is it decided that certain posters do not contribute but rather incite, vilify, argue bereft of logic and deplete the collective intelligence of the forum to the level of a non professional verbal street fight between idiot combatants and salesmen?

__________________
"If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance." - Orville Wright

David G. Wedemeyer, D.C., C.Ped.

Dave

Nicely put!

Dave

__________________
Descartes seems to consider here that beliefs formed by pure reasoning are less doubtful than those formed through perception.

David,

I seriously haven't learned anything new on here in some time because an inordinate amount of OUR time and energy is wasted supplying verbal lithium to the deluded ramblings of a few. I'm over it, time for a vote I suggest. Otherwise this once wonderful resource is fast going to the dogs where biomechanics is concerned. A pity.

__________________
"If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance." - Orville Wright

David G. Wedemeyer, D.C., C.Ped.

Whilst I can sympathise with David W and I also at the same time hear Eric F when he says he responds as he feels something needs to be said, to balance certain concerning views when they are aired as it were, I don't think that a vote is necessarily appropriate, even though we might consider the "professionalism " of this forum to be under "threat."

In fact, personally, such a threat is in no way apparent to me. I made it clear a while ago that I decided that when certain people repeatedly post in the way they do I skip over their posts and almost always have chosen not to respond to them.

This has worked for me. We have choices. I think the more appropriate response in this instance is to ignore the post when it is posted with obvious intention to divert the thread. Ignore the post and just carry on with the thread.

We can choose to respond or not. If the people annoy us so much then choose to respond or ignore. If you choose to repeatedly respond, despite what history has shown you about the people concerned, then ask ourselves why. Why is it necessary to feel we have convinced then or proven our perspective to them.

These people only come back because by our responses we keep throwing them pieces of crust to chew on. Why keep feeding them?

Sorry if a bit garbled but tired tonight.

__________________
Ian Linane

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