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I think it's the Robbins-Gouwe hypothesis all over. You hit to the point of hurt, the more padding you have, the harder you can (have to) hit to get the same hurt.

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Who? What? When? Why? Yeah? And? So? What?

"My mission drive is to open up my eyes, 'cause the wicked lies and all the sh!te you say..." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4NW5S1UTPQ

"Science is the antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition."

give it a go mate, it's not that bad. No worse than a "99" call.....

Anyway, one way of making lurkers contribute is the odd off-topic thread eh?....

Back to the topic (ish) anyone agree with the content of Chris Nesters lecture referenced by Simon?

I too have my 'red badges of courage' including ACL rupture'72, 3 known #'s of nose, depressed fracture of cheekbone '71.
Nursed (in another life) several quadraplegics post rugby >> never let my sons play it though my youngest watches the All-Blacks, Boks, French games with me.
Love the American football, the tactics & skill.
Testosterone has a lot to answer for, doesn't it.

!) Mrs McKinnis always taught "there is no such thing as normal!" you already know this!

2) after allmost 10yrs post graduation you need to know this now? err why?? this makes watching Eastenders look appealing... you need to get out more with your wife!

3) again you need to know this now????????......

4) thats what a good divorce lawyers is for!... but sadly boyfriends also make these comments too... or just look over your shoulder and say "my god thats boring i'll go watch Eastenders" (for answer about wife see question 2)

5) yep!

6) posts like this.... :

thanks for brightening up a rather dull paperfilled morning!

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__________________
Craig Payne
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Follow me on Twitter | Run Junkie | Latest Blog Post: Foot pronation is not associated with increased injury risk in novice runners wearing a neutral shoe
God put me on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things - right now I am so far behind, I will never die.

[quote=Robertisaacs;102086]1.

Do other peoples wives shout at them to "Get off that ****ing forum"?

Just tell 'em its that or Porn

Hmmmmm

I think I know you.

CAN ANYBODY HELP ME OUT ON 1 and 2???? PLEEEEEEEEASE???

Regards
Robert

Root's 8 biophysical criteria for "normalcy" are listed in the illustration below (Root ML, Orien WP, Weed JH, RJ Hughes: Biomechanical Examination of the Foot, Volume 1. Clinical Biomechanics Corporation, Los Angeles, 1971, p. 34.)

Contrary to popular belief, neither Merton Root, John Weed, or William Orien ever taught that the proper way to find subtalar joint (STJ) neutral position was to palpate for talo-navicular congruency. In fact, they describe in their book on neutral position casting, how to position the foot in its neutral position as follows:

I believe that as "Root biomechanics" began to filter back to the east coast of the US in the 1970's, the largest east coast orthosis lab started teaching using talo-navicular congruency as the way to determine STJ neutral position, which is something that, I know for certain, infuriated both Mert Root and John Weed, since they both knew that this was not a good indicator of STJ neutral position and was fraught with error. In fact, during my early student years during the 1979-1982, I was given a poster from Langer Lab that described STJ neutral position casting which stated that the talo-navicular joint must be palpated to determine STJ neutral position.

This erroneous idea that talo-navicular congruency was somehow indicative of STJ neutral then seemed to spread to the UK and elsewhere, probably from the largest east coast orthosis lab teaching this technique abroad. That is my best estimation of how this all happened from what I heard and observed during my association with California College/School of Podiatric Medicine over the past 30 years.

Attached Images

Root's Biophysical Criteria.jpg (360.3 KB, 68 views)

__________________
Sincerely,

Kevin

**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College

e-mail: kevinakirby@comcast.net

Private Practice:
107 Scripps Drive, Suite 200
Sacramento, CA 95825 USA
My location

Voice: (916) 925-8111 Fax: (916) 925-8136
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Kevin you are a prince amongst men! Thankyou.

Fascinating story about stn. I knew that congruency was not how root orien and Weed described it so I was fascinated as to where it came from!

I wonder where sheldon got the idea from!

Regards
Robert

Robert:

If you look at only the photo of their "STJ medial-lateral palpation technique" in "Neutral Position Casting Techniques" and don't take the time to read the text describing the photo, then this is a very easy assumption to make. My guess is that this is probably what happened.

__________________
Sincerely,

Kevin

**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College

e-mail: kevinakirby@comcast.net

Private Practice:
107 Scripps Drive, Suite 200
Sacramento, CA 95825 USA
My location

Voice: (916) 925-8111 Fax: (916) 925-8136
**************************************************

Robert, here is the actual text of Root's criteria for normalcy taken from Biomechanical Examinaion of the Foot (Root, Orien, Weed, and Hughes: Clinical Biomechanics Corporation 1971):

BIOPHYSICAL CRITERIA FOR NORMALCY

The following criteria represent the ideal physical relationship of osseous segments of the foot and leg for the production of maximum efficiency during static stance or locomotion. Such ideal relationships are seldom seen clinically, and merely represent the basis for evaluation of the degree of deformity present. Minor variations from these established criteria may be observed without associated symptomatology. Only the clinician can determine when the variance is sufficiently great to produce pathology.


A. The distal one-third (1/3) of the leg is vertical. (Fig. 31)

B. The knee, ankle and subtalar joints lie in transverse planes parallel to the supporting surface. (Fig. 31)

C. The subtalar joint rests at its neutral position. (Fig. 31)

D. The bisection of the posterior surface of the calcaneus is vertical. (Fig. 31)

E. The midtarsal joint is locked in its maximum position of pronation. (Therefore, the forefoot is locked against the rearfoot during stance). (Fig. 31)

F. The plantar forefoot plane parallels the plantar rearfoot plane, and both parallel the supporting surface. In this position, the sagittal bisection of the posterior surface of the calcaneus is perpendicular to the plantar plane of the foot.
(Fig. 31)

G. Metatarsals 2, 3 and 4 are in a totally dorsiflexed position, and the plantar surface of the metatarsal heads describe a common plane parallel to the supporting surface. (Fig. 32)

H. Metatarsals 1 and 5 are maintained in such a position that the plantar surface of these heads lie in the same transverse plane as the metatarsal heads of 2, 3 and 4. (Fig. 32)

In regards to question number 4 (Do other peoples wives shout at them to "Get off that ****ing forum"?) my guess that some of their wives prefer it!

Respectfully
Jeff
www.root-lab.com

Thanks Jeff! Considering how quick people are to poo poo them its interesting how poorly known they are!

No! Say it ain't so! One of, if not the most well know and most used biomechanical methods of modern times is based on A MISREADING OF THE TEXTBOOK?!?!?!!?

You could never make it up!

Regards
Robert

Robert,

I think the technique of palpating the TNJ for congruency as an indicator of STJ position evolved from a section of Biomechanical Examination of the Foot in which the authors described a technique for determining the neutral calcaneal stance position. They described three criteria, used in combination with one another, to determine the neutral calcaneal stance position. Talonavicular congruence was one of the three criteria. I scanned the portion of the text that describes it and posted it below. I hope my scanner didn’t both up the wording somewhere.

I never saw Dr. Root palpate the TNJ in order to find the neutral position of the STJ during an open chain examination of the foot and I know he didn't recommend it. He advocated using the appearance of the curves above and below the lateral mallelous and feeling for the low point in the arc of motion of the forefoot in space as the primary criteria for positioning the STJ in the neutral during open chain examination and casting of the foot.

Respectfully,
Jeff
www.root-lab.com

NEUTRAL CALCANEAL STANCE POSITION


The patient is standing erect on a level hard surface. The feet are placed in their angle and base of gait. The examiner is medial to the foot being examined, to bring his eyes parallel to the posterior surface of the calcaneus.

The subtalar joint is placed in the neutral position (Fig. 127). Three (3) criteria are used to establish this position:

1. The congruity of the medial and lateral edges of the talus to the calcaneus at the subtalar joint.

This can be palpated below or in front of the medial and lateral malleolus. The congruity only occurs, when the subtalar joint is in the neutral position. When the subtalar joint is not in the neutral position, the edges of either the talus or the calcaneus will be prominent.

2. The concavity on the lateral surface of the foot is parallel to the concavity on the lateral surface of the leg.

This is a visual observation made immediately below the lateral malleolus (on the foot), and immediately above the lateral malleolus (on the leg), when the subtalar joint is in the neutral position.

When the subtalar joint is supinated, a convexity appears on the lateral surface of the foot, while the concavity on the leg increases. The convexity is angulated
to the concavity. (Fig. 128)

When the subtalar joint is pronated, the concavity on the foot becomes deeper, and the concavity above the lateral malleolus becomes more shallow. The two (2)
concavities are no longer parallel. (Fig. 129)


3. The lateral surface of the foot describes a straight line in the area of the calcaneal cuboid joint.

This is a visual observation, when the subtalar joint is in the neutral position in stance. (Fig. 127)

When the subtalar joint is supinated, a convexity appears on the lateral surface of the foot. (Fig. 128)

When the subtalar joint is pronated, a concavity appears on the lateral surface of the foot in the area of the calcaneal cuboid articulation. (Fig. 129)


The posterior surface of the calcaneus is bisected, while the subtalar joint is maintained in the neutral position. The neutral calcaneal stance position is measured, using the same technique as measuring the relaxed calcaneal stance position (Figs. 125 & 126). Care must be taken to avoid subtalar joint motion from the neutral position, while the measurement is being made.