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What is the Best Definition for "Minimalist Running Shoes"?

Discussion in 'Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses' started by Kevin Kirby, Sep 9, 2011.

  1. BEN-HUR

    BEN-HUR Well-Known Member

    Do you mean in comparison with the Hattori? The Free 3.0 is said to have a 4mm heel/forefoot differential whilst the Hattori has a 0mm drop.

    With all that's been going on here, you may have missed an earlier post which delved into this area...


    I don't wear any insoles for the Free 3.0... however, (as you can probably see in my previous post pictures) I have recently applied Met. Domes to the Free 3.0 (just testing a few things out with the shoes). I use this pair of Free 3.0 for my tempo treadmill work (hence why they look so clean :D)

    I have also modified my Vibram Classics via adding poron/PPT to the PMA, PCA & Achilles area...

    [​IMG]
    (excuse the apple, it was intended as a subliminal prop i.e. Newton :D in an earlier post/thread)
    [​IMG]

    Like I said, you seem to have a sincere interest/experience in the topic of "minimalist running shoes". It's interesting that two Podiatrists on the opposite ends of the country seem to be wearing similar running shoes thus keep us posted on your views/results with them.
     
  2. Perthpod

    Perthpod Active Member

    Nice mods!! Love the poron ;) So the Free 3 has the 4mm drop like the last two. I would probably get the first ones again rather than try the 3s as they are so comfortable. The 2s that I have just seem too high on the upper, may just be my imagination. Do you know if there is such a beast as a fake Nike Free? Dont want to be tricked by ebay.
    I did a barefoot running clinic with a guy from over your way..Max De Lacy from Barefoot Inc. when he came to Perth. He may have some input on the definition of a minimalist running shoe as this is his business. Will see if he wants to comment..
    It is pretty funny that we have very similar shoes, I feel you may run substantially further though ;) Im a 5Ker and sprint triathlon kinda gal. Do you do any trails? Didnt realise Nike made Free trails. Will keep y'all posted.
     
  3. Orthican

    Orthican Active Member

    Oh. I was not aware of that. My intent was not to be hidden that's for sure. Sorry. If it helps My Name is Todd S. and I am partners in an orthotic/prosthetic practice. I am a certified orthotist and I have been in the field since 1984.
    Feet are of course a part of what I do but my main intrests lie in stance phase KAFO application, spinal orthoses and AFO application in cerebral palsy and stroke. I have had a lot of experience working with the polio survivor population and work with stroke survivors on a regular basis. I collaberate within my community with most of the MD's and all four of the orthopedic surgeons. It is a very nice working atmosphere. I have written a few small articles for our rag called "Alignment" and do my best to encourage an arena within my own field of shared learning and collaberation.

    That said it is why I like this podiatry arena. Ad hominems etc are part of the territory on the internet and I just ignore that stuff. The information here as I have said is second to none. When someone like myself wants to know something I generally like to go to the horse's mouth as it were and this place has doctorate level thinkers that allow thought and idea exchange quite freely. Kudos to whomever started this site!

    Does that help Kevin? Apologies if I seemed to be holding back. You seem very helpful and the rest of you if you wish can just call me Todd if you want. No bother to me as long as it helps to get a question or two answered from time to time. :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2011
  4. David Wedemeyer

    David Wedemeyer Well-Known Member

    Welcome on board Todd :welcome:

    I've learned a great deal from orthotists over the years and If I hadn't chosen the path that I did, was considering becoming a CO. I look forward to your posts and learning from your unique perspective and experience.
     
  5. Todd:

    Much better now that I know where you are coming from in your own medical speciality, Todd, thank you. Many of us spend a lot of our free time here trying to teach others more about the podiatric speciality....and we get a lot in return with our own increased knowledge. You are most welcome here and we all feel we can learn from one another. Welcome to Podiatry Arena :welcome:.

    Just ask away and you will probably get your questions answered. We have some of the best minds in foot orthoses and foot and lower extremity biomechanics visiting Podiatry Arena on a regular basis so you should get a pretty good answer. As you stated, you will need to ignore some of the BS that goes on here by those who have an agenda other than teaching and learning and I'm sure your medical expertise will come in handy for many of us in the future.

    Looking forward to your participation on Podiatry Arena.:drinks
     
  6. BEN-HUR

    BEN-HUR Well-Known Member

    I'm sure there is always the possibility that there are fakes floating around. Recently heard of fake Vibram 5Fs on the market. However, if you buy from a reputable dealer on eBay you would be fine.

    I am familiar with Max (don't know him personally). He is also associated with the Pose method of running (i.e. holds Pose workshops).

    I run trails in the Nike Free 3.0 & find them very good. It is wise to run on trails if you are doing a lot of mileage. Also much nicer environment to run in than the traffic. Fortunately I live near a couple of National Parks.

    I'm not familiar of a Nike Free Trail... haven't been sold in Australia to my knowledge. Frankly, I don't think there is need for one.
     
  7. toomoon

    toomoon Well-Known Member

    From Matthew.."just 0mm - as is the foot."

    Been following this discussion with interest. surprised Blaise has not popped up because he has come up with a formula to determine the definition of minimal. Kudos to him for taking the issue seriously. Still seems we have no real definition, and so nothing to amortise results against.
    but back to Matthew's quote above.. do we all agree that the foot is "zero drop"? I think I could make a case that due to the increased thickness of the plantar fad pad over the Ff fat pad, the foot is actually not zero drop!
     
  8. BEN-HUR

    BEN-HUR Well-Known Member

    Thanks Simon for bringing this up - I have been thinking of this myself (& I remember the thought crossed my mind when I wrote the above). Is the foot really "0mm" ("zero drop")? - I would think theoretically not (in reference to the skeletal aspect in relationship of Calcaneus to Met. Heads) - due to as you suggest, the plantar fat pad of the Calc. (thicker) in relation to forefoot (thinner). Then we have some people's plantar fat pad larger/thicker/firmer than others (which would also slightly differ the figures). But I think we all should know what was the gist of my point (i.e. with the "0mm" figure) in the above quote i.e. removing a constant outside influence as a traditional 10-12 mm differential shoe would have (over varying terrain) on the i.e. foot/ankle angle. Hence why I sometimes use the term "plantigrade" as opposed to "0mm" - for want of a better term.

    I'll be happy to hear discussion on this as it is a tad interesting (albeit an element of minimal influence form person to person due to the nature of the fat pad in the regions of question). I see the heel pitch of a shoe being of a greater influence & subsequent potential for adverse forces which could contribute to fatigue, soreness, injury & inefficiency.

    [​IMG]

    After looking at the above picture closer, I would say that it is of non-weight bearing... hence not the best to draw upon as the pad above would compress further.
     
  9. reillyshoe

    reillyshoe Member

    If the toes are all in one compartment, can the foot develop naturally? Doesn't this prevent toes from acting independently and alter bone structure?
     
  10. Which raises another question or two: do the toes act independently in standard shoes?; if the toes are in separate compartments within a shoe, such as in the Vibram type shoe, does this alter bone structure?

    It may be argued of course that the toes never truly act independently due to the insertions of shared structures such as the plantar-fascia, and multiple tendinous slips from the long and short flexors/ extensors etc..
     
  11. reillyshoe

    reillyshoe Member

    I guess I would reference Erik Trinkaus' research to show that the was an observable difference between phalange bone structure with and without shoes:

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1470209/posts

    I know this has been debated on this site, but I would guess if you believe Trinhaus conclusion then any minimalist shoe would require that toes behave independently- other shoe characteristics not withstanding.
     
  12. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    8
    I have seen 2 more cases of plantar plate dysfunction in those wearing vibrams since starting this thread: Vibram Five Fingers and Plantar Plate Dysfunction
     
  13. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Well-Known Member

    It may be important to define both sides of the spectrum.

    What is minimalist?
    What is maximalist?

    It may be difficult to use set weight, design and shape parameters as the definer such as the height of the foam (in the heel or forefoot) or other materials under the foot.

    I agree with your notion of using Kinematic effects (gait efficiency, stability, impact midigation) as a guide. Although this would require human subject testing which opens up a whole bunch of testing variables such as running style and floor conditions.

    Also, It might be better to use protection more as a guide for maximalist shoes where by a maximalist shoe enhances or surpases the puncture protection standards from the ASTM or SATRA standards for enhanced safety.

    Are the pair of Converse Chuck Talor's i am wearing today minamalist shoes or are they considered a maximalist shoe because they have hardened composite spring orthotics inside that surpasses the ASTM puncture standard by 300% while improving stability and energy efficiency of gait?

    Mahalo,
    Steve
     
  14. Steve:

    Are you capable of making one single posting here on Podiatry Arena that doesn't mention or attempt to market your product? I think not.

    Why don't you (and Dennis) go somewhere else to market your patented products where possibly you might find someone who actually is interested in your pet ideas? That would make many of us very happy.:cool:
     
  15. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Well-Known Member

    Aloha,

    Kevin i am sorry you see it that way.

    You see it as products and profits i see it as new and exciting science.

    Mahalo,
    Steve

    Kingetics- Spooning Up Solid Science...TM
     
  16. blinda

    blinda MVP

    Kevin is correct. I just see a salesman.

    Pathetic.
     
  17. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Well-Known Member

    Aloha Simon,

    Perhaps someday your appathy will turn into empathy when you finally understand the concepts of using advanced composites and simple machines to enhance gait.

    Please answer the question, how would you truthfully catagorize my Chucks yesterday, min or max ???

    Mahalo,
    Steve

    Kingetics- Living Up Expectations...TM

    ps that was a very nice you tube song and you have a very great voice.
     
  18. toomoon

    toomoon Well-Known Member


    If that was you, I am sacking Kirby from my band, The Tarsal Coalition. For a start he refuses to wear gold hoop earings...:eek:
     
  19. Dr. Steven King

    Dr. Steven King Well-Known Member

    Aloha,

    Maximalism is the inverse of minimalism.

    Maximalism must show testable and significant improvements in gait stability, energy efficiency, physical protection and Greenablility.

    Super Sized extra depth foam based shoes are not maximalist shoes unless they meet that definition.

    Folks rely on us to know the difference and to recommend what is honestly needed by them.

    Just banging away on my drum of common sense.

    Mahalo, :cool:
    Steve

    ps- What do our soldiers and first responders need when walking into Harm's Way for us? Minimalism or Maximalism?
     
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