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Morality:God Given or Human Invention?

Discussion in 'Break Room' started by David Smith, Apr 13, 2010.

  1. David Smith

    David Smith Well-Known Member


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    Taken from the thread 'EBM and Sacketts Empricism' in the Biomechanics section:-

    Mark Russell wrote
    I replied

    To answer this question Mark I first make the assumption, based on all your replies in the previous EBM thread, that you are a man who believes in the Big Bang - Time and Evolution theories and not in Creationism. Could be some mix of the two or perhaps you have your own explanation of life but this seems unlikely since this stance would take a huge leap of faith and an extraordinary belief in one's own infallibility. I'll stick with my first assumption for now.

    To make the proposition that, Humans invented Moral codes, which could not be God given since God does not even exist, you first have to concede that morals did not just exist in some way waiting to be discovered. To get to the point where an intelligent life form can invent morals you first must show some way that the life form came into existence.

    You, I guess, would say that life evolved from some primordial soup of inorganic chemicals, which after an appropriate amount of time burst into life and then refer to Darwin who said all the rest in terms of Evolution from then on.

    There is a paradox right there, which I find hard to resolve. I think science knows pretty much what chemicals make up a simple organism and yet can they put them all in Petri dish in the right quantities and environment and make them live?

    Is it just a case of time, you need a million years of the same chemical sitting in the dish in the same environment and in some way time makes chemicals live!!

    The paradox is this: as we know time only allows decay, the flow of time is in one direction (as far as our human senses can determine anyway) i.e. complex stuff returns or breaks down into its elemental forms. So how is it that in this theory we can disregard this fact and allow time to build stuff from elements?
    How is it that the minerals and chemical and metals found in the natural earth didn't, in the same way evolve or form into cars or computers or intelligent robots or even simpler stuff like a cup or a knife or compounds like chrome molybdenum steel? Surely the probability of life occurring purely by accident or random consequence is far higher than lifeless but complex machinery?
    But let’s get past this stumbling block and move on, let’s assume that life did just happen by random consequence. How is it that higher life which evolved as separate entities with no physical connection between their nervous systems, live entities having no more meaning or relevance to the earth or space or each other than one rock does to another rock, no concern or obligation required to any other separate living entity, how is it that suddenly they develop concern and love and morals from a previously completely amoral existence. It’s like expecting your computer to cry when you bin its printer and get a new one, it won’t happen even if they live together for a million years. For a computer to be able to do this it would require a human to program it to feel and love and have morals.

    Evolution proposes survival of the fittest or the most suitable for the prevailing environment. Variation in species turns up traits that allow adaption and the more suitable ones become more prolific while the less suitable ones become less prolific and the magic bit is that at some point they become new species.

    Ok, let’s run with that, at what point did morals become significant to the evolution of man? Surely the man who cheats and steals and does whatever it takes to be the top dog in his society would be the most successful. This trait would become prolific while the nice guy trait would become attenuated to the point of extinction; man would become a species of super b’stards.
    You could say that developing a social structure where the group is more important that the individual made man evolve in such a way that these traits became dominant. Even though that appears to go against the basic tenant of individual evolution (remember each entity is separate with no obligation of empathetic connection, just the inert, insensate tendency to advance and develop the most successful trait ). Why then would such a group develop morals that insist they allow or even nurture the weak amongst them e.g. the sick the old the unproductive? Why would love for others override the group’s need to be more successful?
    Let’s say that humans developed morals when they became Homo Sapien. Ok! Do you suppose that you / we, 200,000 years later, have better or greater morals than Homo sapiens? Do you /we have a greater or better moral code than apes? Do we have better morals than the Egyptians 5,000 years ago. How come we haven’t evolved and developed our morals to become some super community of social benevolency where no one would hurt or cause distress to another human being for whatever reason, absolute love reigns? WHY?

    I’ll tell you why, because God gave us life and he instilled morals in us. It is an innate truth within us. He gave us perfect and we chose imperfection and we keep doing it. We are not perfect for all the reasons explained by God through the bible. We posses Gods character but it is flawed by our own fault. We chose sin and imperfection but God so loves us that he gives us the ability to recognise him and want to return to him, and seek love.

    We need his love more than we need this life. He gives us a way to return to him even though we are imperfect and even though we will never be perfect in this life. God’s amazing love is shown through the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ and this is the way God chose for you to return to him. All you need to do is make that choice, it is as simple as that.

    God made us and after we chose imperfection he gave us a moral code, which we could never keep to, and he knew that because we were then slaves to sin, unholiness and ultimately, without the grace of God and the guidance of Jesus and the energy of the Holy Spirit, we are the property of evil.

    So we live this life in constant flux and contention between sin and love but we can choose love and aspire to it for our salvation. The catch is that if you choose not to accept Jesus it’s not as if you can just choose to die and that just be an end to you life, just nothingness, gone , finitto.

    No you will see God at the end of your earthly life and when you do and you did not choose New Life through Jesus, then you will burn with anguish and regret for ever. Since you will see God in all his glory and splendour and you will feel his abundant and unimaginable love and He will not recognise you and you will be cast out and separated from that love forever and you will know it. Can you take such a risk?

    Ah ha! Back to probability and risk, in earthy terms the probability of that scenario happening for someone of no faith is very low but the risk is huge (even though you may not accept it as a risk, it still exists). But when you do have faith, when you have felt the real presence of God, seen his work and know just an inkling of his great love, then the probability is very high and the risk of not accepting it is infinitely huge.

    All the very best to you Dave Smith

    God is holding his hand out for you, just take hold, He loves YOU. It's a gift with no strings.
     
  2. Griff

    Griff Moderator

    Pascal's wager/gambit
     
  3. Graham

    Graham RIP

    It's funny how the most moral and non hypocritical people I meat are A-Theists. They have no problems following THE Moral code such as suggested by mono theistic religions.

    Pity the Catholic Priests and other church officials that abused children in their care, and Sunday worshipers who are un-accommodating of others race or creed couldn't be so Moral!

    Just an honest A-Theist view.
     

  4. Sadly the people who like religion are not always the people religion likes.

    My 0.02$

    Morality cannot exist in a vacuum. We in the western world, regardless of religous belief have been moulded by the judeo Christian origins of our society. For good or Ill, religion moulds society and society moulds all of us. So none of us can Honestly claim our morality is entirely unaffected by religion.

    So for me, the question is flawed because from within the paradigm of religosity morality is divinely inspired even if it is a human invention. From outside the paradigm it cannot be divinely inspired by definition.

    To judge by followers of either belief set is also flawed. In some cases religion can lead to the greatest amoralities, since people can claim that their own amoral desires have divine sanction. However by the same token some of the greatest and most self sacrificial people in society are thus because of what they perceive as an externally generated docterine.
     
  5. Graham

    Graham RIP

    Very nice!
     
  6. David Smith

    David Smith Well-Known Member

    Ian, Yes - although I had never heard of this before it is pretty much what I am saying. For others interested find the explanation of Pascal's wager at - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager.

    I suppose once you know God and you take time to read the bible then this conclusion is inevitable. I have found this with many other pieces I have written, notes I've made and conclusions I've come to. They appear original to me but then I find many have found the same and often many famous philosophers or theologians have written the same in past times.

    God guides us through our own understanding to come to basic statements of truth. I find it pretty amazing that this happens. An atheist, I suspect,would have a logical explanation why this would happen. I know I would have once but that is because they don't choose to see God, they have a veil over there eyes and they prefer to be blind.


    What is it that turns a person like me who was a devout atheist and at the most successful time of his life, when I was mentally, emotionally, academically and financially sound with a firm and well tested belief system, to suddenly change and acknowledge God, become Christian and change my life so that it was not so cosy and easy and go through all sorts of turmoil to come to terms with this new faith, give up some of the things I dearly loved and were part of me, That I would never give up for anything or anyone before and yet still know it was the right way.

    I was lucky God came and made Himself plainly obvious to me, some have to get there by other ways but we all must make a choice. As a human being it makes no difference to me what you do but as a Christian I only want to share a treasure with you. A Gift that is the single most valuable and important Gift you could ever choose to receive. I get no reward, gain no advantage from telling you, I want and need nothing in return. I just know that this is a gift for sharing and not hoarding. A free gift with no strings just more of the same forever, were else can you get that sort of deal?


    What you don't grasp as most atheist do not and cannot, is that it's not directly about morals, I said earlier that God knew and shows us that man cannot be perfect and sinless and perfectly Holy. God gave us morals or laws to live life by only in order to highlight our sin, to give us a point of reference that we never had before.

    It is about accepting Christ as your saviour and so breaking the chains of sin, you are a person no longer a slave of sin. This does not mean you cannot do anything bad it is that you are changing. This is why James (a writer of a book of the bible - or epistle) said that 'faith without works is dead'. That is, you may claim to be Christian but if it does not show in the way you live your life then your faith is useless and Jesus will not recognise you as a man reborn. But by the same token you cannot just do good works you must also accept Christ because when you do that is when you start to change. This is a difficult concept and one that can probably only be fully understood through faith. Christian's can do bad things but God knows that.

    Regards Dave
     
  7. Dave

    Thank you for taking the time to submit your thoughts and if you'll permit me a little time, I shall respond in detail.

    Kind regards

    Mark
     
  8. Graham

    Graham RIP

    I understand your position based on a "belief" and a "faith" structure. However, looking at the attrocities, wars, and indignitries perpetuated in the name of GOD, it is apparent that religians use morals as a cover and forgivemess as an inherant fact for their actions.

    Western religions are intollerant and hypocritical. Fundamentalism has been driven by this intollerance, pushing mainstream reasonable religeous people to the sides of an ever increaseing battle of the fundamentalists. A-Theists on the other hand are generraly tollerant and non judgmental.

    As one great Irish comedian would say:

    "May your God go with you"

    Regards
     
  9. A much missed genius. I remember sitting and watching his show with my late father: fag in one hand, glass of whiskey in the other; both Dave Allen and my father, not me.

    "And we love to wear a badge, a uniform,
    And we love to fly a flag.
    But I won't..." Like a Song- U2

    I've read several books that form the basis of several religions from around the world (if you've only ever read one book, you'll only ever have one point of view- right?), but I still come back to Thomas Huxley: "Do not pretend conclusions are certain that are not demonstrated or demonstrable". Wise words. If you must pretend that a conclusion which is not demonstrated or demonstrable is in fact a truth, then carry the words of John Lennon with you: "all you need is love", rather than fighting your corner to support your non-demonstrated nor demonstrable conclusion against another's non-demonstrated, nor-demonstrable conclusion. That way the rest of us may have a more peaceful world in which to live. Just a thought, and a prayer.
     
  10. RobinP

    RobinP Well-Known Member

    As noble as that is, I have been given gifts before that people have given with the best of intentions. They clearly think it is something of great worth and usefulness - and it probably is... to them. I hated those ear muffs!

    Excuse my flippancy. The point I make is this - and I do not know if this particularly applies to your faith David - religions always seem as if they are touting for members. In my opinion, they always go about it in the wrong way. Instead of encouraging discussion and insight, they "preach" and try to impart pearls of wisdom upon us poor non believers.

    I want gifts, I just don't want the same gifts you want

    Regards,

    Robin
     
  11. Bottle of Scotch and twenty Benson and Hedges?
     
  12. Ooo what fun:drinks

    The trouble with taking an atheist position based on provable fact is that to be consistent within your argument you must stick within provable fact. Theists must, almost by definition, base theirs on something other.

    To tar the entirety of western religion with the brush of intolerance and hypocrisy is, perhaps, something of a generalisation? Likewise to say that atheists are tolerant and non judgemental is to make some pretty big assumptions! As someone arguing from a position of rational logic can you do that?

    The thing is that with atheists, theists and podiatric fringes alike, the ones who make the most noise, and get the most attention, are not necessarily representative of the whole. It is logical for the intolerant Theists to be more noticeable by the very nature of their intolerance isn't it? Dodgy sample group for the whole. Be like saying runners generally have injuries because all the ones who limp into your office do.

    I've run into one or two pretty judgemental atheists. ;). But I would not dream of suggesting that they were representative of the group as a whole.

    One thing I would agree with you on is that the religious / political right seems to have hijacked the evangelical movement in the church. Which one (baptist) minister likened to the mixing of dung and ice-cream. Did the dung no harm but ruined the ice cream!
    :good:

    There are worse creeds! I still think John Lennon ripped that out of the bible. Basically Matthew 22 36-40 combined with Matt 25:40 sums the bible up in its entirety as basically "be excellent to each other" (Bill and Ted).
     
  13. RobinP

    RobinP Well-Known Member

    I've never been so insulted
     
  14. Like I said, if you only read one book, you'll only have one point of view. Seems to be a trend running through them all from my reading.
     
  15. Graham

    Graham RIP

    Being an A-Theist does free up my Sundays:drinks

    NIce discussion.
     
  16. I'm sure you have. If not, I'm sure I can do better.
     
  17. And he was the Walrus,

    Ferris Buellers day off
     
  18. Lawrence Bevan

    Lawrence Bevan Active Member

    There is no god.


    oh no now I've done it........
     
  19. Nah you've not. You're thinking of fairies who die if someone says they don't believe in them . ;)

    Very true!
     
  20. twirly

    twirly Well-Known Member

    I may not feel the powerful touch of any Gods wisdom in my heart.

    However, I still clap to keep the fairy alive.

    :empathy:

    I cannot claim to be a wonderful orator or word-smith.

    Isn't moral code without regard for religion or gain of any 'higher ground'? Surely it is just about what you believe to be right.

    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-definition/

    The link holds even more interesting debate.

    I prefer the second option.

    I suppose it depends on what is considered 'rational'.................

    Love this discussion.

    Many thanks.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2010
  21. Lawrence Bevan

    Lawrence Bevan Active Member

    :pigs:

    "Die Religion ist das Opium des Volkes" :butcher:
     
  22. Dave

    To start with your assumption of what I believe our origins to be; the simple answer is I do not have absolute belief in anything! Scientific enquiry in recent years suggests a Big Bang theory and there may be some merit in that, however, the truth of the matter is that I,we, all of us, simply do not know for certain where and how or when we came into being. We can examine the recent past – by that I mean the last few million years – and we can make some fairly accurate assumptions that our ancestors evolved from the great apes through the various stages of the genus homo to how we are today. Beyond that, we simply do not know for certain. Maybe we came from soup or perhaps kindly alien happened to drop us on this planet from another far away. But the concept that man was created by a god and placed on this planet as Adam and Eve around 4004BC seems as fanciful to me as the Egyptian sun god Ra or Robert’s Easter Bunnies. Darwin’s Theory of Evolution demonstrates just how living organisms adapt and change - sometimes over a relatively short period of time – by natural selection (with genetic drift and some other factors perhaps assisting), and are ethical creatures, it follows ab esse ad posse – whatever is, is possible – that ethics and morals can be derived from evolution by natural selection. Humans didn’t invent morals one bright sunny day six thousand years ago in the garden of Eden nor were they instilled by some supernatural deity, they have developed over a far greater time as our brains have developed from our ancient ancestors and our ability to think and reason and rationalise and process our thoughts has increased accordingly.

    You ask if we have better ethics and moral codes than apes – of course we have. The idea might be that whereas other social animals have evolved behaviours that subserve the interests of their sociality – dominance orderings, co-operation in hunting and in keeping a look out of danger or predators – this does not amount to ethics or morals, the idea of which at least premises an awareness of the demands and responsibilities ethics involves, and the possibility of their non-observance, not least deliberately. Among other animals the evolved social behaviours are largely invariant and automatic; a putative ‘ethics’ that is choicelessly a result of hard-wiring could not be described in any way as a moral code.

    Just because we may not know – yet – the entire process of our evolution, does not indicate the presence of a supernatural deity that created humans in its image – for me that’s a ridiculous assertion; we don’t fully understand, therefore there must be a god. I don’t know if there’s a primordial soup, nor do I know what’s beyond the multiverse. I don’t really know what’s under the earth’s mantle or if the core of our planet is made of iron or even marshmallow – and nor do I know why sometimes prefabricated orthoses work better than custom devices, but in time, way beyond our life, we may have these answers too. Assuming we haven’t been made extinct by a planetary disaster of some kind or another. Meteorites and asteroids and super-volcanic eruptions would be terribly unfortunate – a human inspired religious apocalypse would be beyond lunacy – but, of course, a very real possibility. Just because we don’t know all the answers doesn’t mean that there is a creator who does!

    Of course, you might then ask – why are we here? Why is there something rather than nothing? You might think this question is genuinely puzzling on the basis that nothingness is vastly simpler than somethingness and might rationally be supposed the more natural state in view of the presumably infinite effort required for anything to emerge from nothing. And yet there is something: so there is a desire for humans to know why.

    You could ask why there is something rather than nothing, because you expect, or at least desire, an answer incorporating the claim that our universe exists for a purpose, which the answer accordingly identifies.

    The vacuous hypothesis that there is something because it was created by a supernatural deity can be dismissed immediately and easily. The hypothesis in effect says that the reason why there is anything at all is because something else made it, which is either question-begging or invites an explanatory null regress. It is one of our most persistent lingering fatuities that the universe’s origins (or indeed our own or anything else) can be explained by arbitrarily invoking an entity called god, equally arbitrarily defined as fully equipped to be the explanation of what is to be explained!

    As far as religion is concerned, I would agree with Graham and Simon that it has lost any respectability as a result of the atrocities committed in its name and because of its clamouring for an undue slice of the pie and because of its efforts to impose its views on others. These atrocities, committed by fanatics and zealots, whose views are not very different to the majority of others in most faiths, are profoundly dangerous. Whether it be the Islamic suicide bomber or Christian Fundamentalist in charge of Foreign Policy– Osama Bin Laden or Tony Blair or George Bush – they pose a far greater threat to everyone of us than anything else we presently face. And it’s a threat that, unfortunately, doesn’t look as if it will end soon.

    Kind regards

    Mark
     
  23. I'm not sure I agree with this. I seem to remember from chemistry lessons mixing two or more chemicals together, allowing some time for the reaction to occur and ending up with a more complex product after the reaction had taken place. Viz. something was built from elements over time.
     
  24. ..........now who was it that mentioned a super-volcanic eruption??
     
  25. Played 3 times now - How much hairspray. Great stuff.

    In my 1st 6 months a practice I had a Rabbi- as a patient. We got on very well and he came as a patient quite often till we sorted out his pain. He had been a Rabbi for 30-40 years. One day he asked Michael can I ask you a question ? Do you beleive in a God- I said I don´t think so and gave my reasons.

    He said those reasons not to beleive in God have been caused by mankind who claim to represent God, but probably do not.

    He said that if you are a good person and there is a God you will go to heaven if you go to Church or not. So I asked why did you become a Rabbi then. He said it was expected of him by his family and he feel in love with the History of religion not just his.
     
  26. Dave

    What of the follower of the Islamic faith who believes not in Jesus but Mohhamed and Allah instead of God and who's route to paradise may be accompanied by several dozen virgins providing they kill a few non believers or infidels en route? Are they misguided too or is it just another interpretation of the same thing?

    Mark
     
  27. David Smith

    David Smith Well-Known Member

    I like your candid reply Robin, 3 things occur to ask you here, - ah! 4 - four things occur to ask you here :rolleyes:

    1) We try to open your eyes to a choice that we see as eternally important, to keep this from you would be the worst thing I could do. Do you suggest I should treat you this badly and condemn you to death or should I offer you New Life, which is the very best thing I can do for you.

    Would you leave your friends standing in the rain when you lived nearby and could invite them in to the warm and dry but did not offer for fear that you should offend their right to self determination even though they lack the evidence to make an informed choice through lack of knowledge of all the possibilities? This would seem to be a strange decision don’t you think? It’s a simple choice offered with no strings.

    2) Apologetics, witnessing and evangelism are the three ways of giving you the message of the bible. Discussion can be a good way to put these into the public arena and I do believe I have engaged in discussion and logical argument, along with some apologetics, witnessing and evangelism. Discussion does tend to imply that I might change my belief. Discussion also tends to imply that I may think that you might have a valid argument, I cannot.

    This may sound arrogant and in your terms it is, but how can I have a sincere faith but still be open to the fact that it might be wrong. This is not faith this is just a convenient point of view that suits my lifestyle at this present moment. Christian faith is not that at all. It must endure through all doubt and persecution, foolish argument, haranguing and dispute otherwise it becomes a fickle vanity.

    All things in life except sincere Christian faith are fickle vanities because only the results of sincere faith are everlasting. Of course you cannot agree with this, and may even find it offensive, because, you will think that, everyone should be open to persuasive argument! And the argument I put, in terms of logic, is tautological since you have to accept the initial premise of a omniscient Holy God to confidently promulgate the theory.

    My God, My faith, my system if you will, cannot be successfully argued using the definitions and statements of your system and vice versa. We start with two opposing axioms neither of which are beyond doubt or even reasonably logically proved, one of which proposes that its very existence depends on our human inability to fully understand or reason. I.E. if we as humans were able to fully understand God then we would be equal to God and have no need of Him. This is insupportable and since there is only one God this is not possible (another circular or tautological argument, it’s unavoidable.)

    3) Do you not like wisdom, is this one of the gifts you don't want?

    4) What Gifts would you really like? I mean if you really sat down and thought
    about it.

    Great to talk, all the best Dave
     
  28. David Smith

    David Smith Well-Known Member

    Jews are not Christians unless they are Messianic whereby they accept Jesus as their saviour. Christians accept Jesus as their Lamb, Saviour and Shepered, we live by spirit not by law.

    Jews, on the other hand, believe in God's Law, obey the law go to Heaven, simple as that, so when the Rabbi says 'be good and go to Heaven' it is correct since his definition of good is to obey the laws of God, in which case you must follow the life of a devout Jew. While this does not necessitate attendance of a church or Synagogue it will be very difficult to correctly progress through your life by the law with no guidance from elders of the church.

    Cheers Dave
     
  29. Dave I think you miss the point of My story, this Rabbi of a different religion was trying to say I beleive that there is only 1 God and good people if devout or not will find a place in heaven.

    Your answer comes across to me that you are saying there are many Gods and that you hope that your is the correct one ( you clearly believe that it is) and that those who have a different God will not go to heaven.

    Religion has been created by man, in has been used as away of controlling the masses. Different men Different set of rules to control people. If you look at the traditions of the Church that beleive in the one true saviour Jesus Christ were of Pagan origins, the Druids. Around the time of the book or Kelts the "Church" took in these traditions and made them it´s own.

    The Church and the name of God has been used and distroyed in the name of greed- a falcity of man.

    I don´t beleive in the church but I try to beleive in the goodness of man, I try and be good to others. To say that you must be of certain religion to meet your maker I hope not ..... It would be a boring place I like a difference of option, makes life intersting.
     
  30. David Smith

    David Smith Well-Known Member

    Simon, I'm going out on a limb here since I'm doing the dangerous thing of asking questions I do not know the answer to. Which as any barrister will tell you is to be avoided at all times.

    I'm not knowledgeable in chemistry or geology but I'll ask this question: Are there any new complex compounds formed by nature since the earth was formed that were not the result of decomposition.

    This begs the question when do you define the earth as formed? and makes answering a little difficult when you consider my reply to Robin today (15th Mar) in paragraph 4 of point (2).

    Nylon was a great one at school I remember, simple to make, how come there are not great nylon reserves laying around under or over the earth? (I could get seriously flamed here) Do you notice though that you as an intelligent person could easily make Nylon and millions of other complicated structures also.

    I would like to ask Simon, How did life start from chemicals? Science cannot say. This does not mean that it did not happen of course. Gravity happens and we could not explain that for thousands of years could we. Ah! oh yeah, we still can't but you know what I mean we can explain some things that we didn't used to be able to explain, can't we eh? :rolleyes:

    Anyway making the assumption that some kind of organic material did start from inorganic material, how did the information then assemble that enabled the organic material to reproduce and replicate (with variations to enable evolution).
    Information does not evolve; it doesn’t happen by random chance. It takes some sort of intelligent being to assemble information. If all the listening devices pointed at space that have not yet picked up any intelligent or cogent signals containing information about something suddenly started to get a signal containing the information to build a light speed starship, they wouldn’t just sit on it and assume that it was just the radio equivalent of cell DNA that just happened to form randomly from some sun spot radiation, -- would they? And yet you (at least as devil’s advocate) might say that this is exactly how cell DNA, with all its huge complexity of information, was produced.
    So in summary, the proposal is that chemicals stirred together and left long enough in the right environment randomly produced organic material and then wrote itself some blue prints so it could continue to do this and replicate over and over again. Somehow at the very point of producing life it also became intelligent enough to know how to do this feat and that it would need to do this to enable survival and not only that but make the information just fallible enough to enable variation and evolution. WOW! Seems pretty incredible to me.
    Just one more last thought, presumably not just one cell was produced 15million years ago, was there millions of cells all produced at round about the same time? If so how did they communicate the same DNA information to each other. They are single entities without any concern for or connection with any other single entity. They don’t even possess nerves or brains and yet was this the time that they developed morals, transmitting empathy thru the thin atmosphere, so as they could work together for the greater good of some future society some billions of years later?????

    Enjoying this discussion immensely and getting so much out of it, thanks all

    All the best Dave
     
  31. David Smith

    David Smith Well-Known Member

    Mr Weber

    I don't think I do misunderstand. Both Jews and Christians believe in the same God as The One God. I do not believe either in the reality or possibility of more than one God and that God is Yahweh or Jehovah. In Christian faith God is also The Holy Spirit and Jesus - The Holy Trinity, I'm not sure how Jews view the Holy Spirit.

    The argument is not about the nature or existence of God but rather how it is possible to return to Him as a sinful flawed being that is not perfectly Holy.

    Though out the Old Testament, Jews give sacrifice of their very best live stock and produce to atone for their sins as commanded by God through His commandments and decrees. This was not because God needed these Sacrifices, no the purpose they served was to point to the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus Christ to atone and redeem us of all our sins forever. Imagine the finest bullock from a fine herd could only atone for one sin, yet Jesus' torture, suffering and sacrifice was ransom enough to cover all our sins forever, everyone on earth for thousands of years, wow! Such was the greatness and love of our Lord Jesus, who was also God.

    We cannot get back to God by sticking to being good or following some set of laws, God shows us that right through out the whole bible, even the very greatest men with the greatest priviliges fell to sin even though they tried not to and knew what they would lose if they did so. What chance the everyday Joe then, none! no one can return through law, rather you can only return through your acceptance of Jesus as your saviour and so are then covered by the ransom secured by his sacrifice, your sins are forgiven and you start to become Holy before God who accepts you through Jesus Christ. Simple (well not really, it takes faith and study and action to really get it, which is why we need church and guidance through our lives. We cannot do it on our own on any level or in any terms.)

    Sin are those things that stop you being Holy as defined by God. They are not necessarily the same as Good or bad. Good and bad are subjective and relative, Holy is objective and absolute. Only the Holy are acceptable in the presence of God (I can't answer that why?) and you only become Holy though Jesus. Clear;)

    Regards Dave
     
  32. So the Dalai Larma would not be accepted by God because I beleive he does not acccept Jesus as his one true God his belief of goodness and peace to others etc, he is therefore not Holy and not accepted by God.

    http://www.dalailama.com/
     
  33. DTT

    DTT Well-Known Member

    Hi All
    Rob, I assume I am one of those to which you refer ??

    I'm sure many hold the same view as me but for their own reasons.

    Mine are as I have explained ,I find religions hypocritical in the extreme. Not one war in history has not had religious cause/or content.

    Many I have met in my life were hard spiteful uncaring people causing pain and misery to others,all in the name of religion.

    I have also seen in my former life, suffering and pain that would destroy any belief in this all caring all loving god that is so ready to look after us all :pigs:

    I have been with the dying and the relatives of those that had been lost many times and listened to their beliefs and tried to comfort them in that belief whatever that may be.

    I don't push my beliefs on anyone but I do have some pretty strong views if challenged so perhaps that is why you view me as judgmental ?

    I prefer to think of it as factual until proven wrong;)

    Just my take

    cheers
    Derek;)
     
  34. David Smith

    David Smith Well-Known Member

    My straightforward answer is yes. That is yes I agree with your above statement, however two things to qualify this, 1) I have only been a Christian for around 18 months and so my answers should be viewed in that light. Although the bible says in 1 Timothy 4 that you should not think less of anyone because they are young in faith and Acts 2 implies that great disciples need no special training. Also I feel God has given me the gift of insight and communication.

    2) We cannot earn our salvation, God gives us this through his grace and he can choose anyone he would want. The point is that it is for one to look at one's own faith and not judge others by their lack of it in terms of judging that they will not be admitted to heaven. God loves us no more or no less whatever we do or are like.

    Imagine your own father (assuming that you have or had a loving father, I apologise if this is not appropriate for you) but for the sake of illustration, imagine your father loves you and your brother, but you are a drug addict and live the stereotypical lifestyle. Would your father love you more or less than your brother? Hopefully not (in some cases a father might but God is not human and fallible) but however he may choose to keep you out of his house for the sake of the family or even have you put in jail. Would your father regret this action? probably. Would he give you all the chances he could, would he try to provide a way for you to be rehabilitated? probably he would. Do you think that if you were to say you were sorry and showed by your life style and by the fact that you took his offer of help that he would welcome you with open arms, of course he would.

    What if the good son who always helped everyone was wonderful but always denied that your father was also his dad, he despises his dad for the control he tries to have over him that your father sees as guidance but your brother sees as interference and selfishness. What if your brother rejected his father at every opportunity throughout his life. How would you father feel toward your brother? If it came to pass that your father was dying and he wanted to leave his house to a family member, who would he be likely to choose, you a broken man returned or your brother who denies your father and curses the ground he stands on.

    Who might be the good and bad one of the two of you to a casual observer who lived down the street and only saw you in your brokenness and only heard about the good things your brother had done. Do you think that your distant neighbour might take the view that your father had been very unfair in leaving you his house??

    Your father could however choose (by his grace) to give the house to both or just your brother, it is his to do with as he likes.

    If a human man can be so loving and forgiving how much more loving and forgiving will God be, your ultimate Father and Judge.
    Regards Dave
     
  35. David Smith

    David Smith Well-Known Member

    Del'

    I understand you misgivings, misunderstanding and bitterness, do I detect bitterness and anger? I have found when talking to people about God that many do not believe in his existence based on the bad things that happen in life and yet they are so angry and bitter at this non existent God that therefore could not have done them any harm.

    I think this little 5 minute monologue that I wrote for a before dinner talk on Monday night (that addressed about 80 Christians and not yet Christians)might help answer or at least address some of your underlying questions.

    What about bad things eh? There’s always bad stuff going on, what’s that about?

    Well God’s been talking to me about something for a while and he made it suddenly very clear a couple of weeks ago, You know how you ponder over something and it’s all very confusing and then suddenly someone says something and Bang it’s crystal clear and you can’t imagine why you ever found it difficult and you can’t understand why others don’t get it.

    In my short time of being a Christian (18 months) I have been able to speak to many people who are not yet Christian, but may be looking – (Hold hand out) God has his hand out to them - even if they don’t know it yet!! BUT - His hand is always there. It just takes time.

    But logical reason puts them off-- What’s one of the most common questions asked about God?

    Pause: maybe some will volunteer some sample questions

    How about this one;

    If God exists why does he let bad things happen?

    Why do people suffer hardship? Why are there disasters? Why would God let a baby die? Why would he put it's parents through such anguish? Surely, if he exists, he cannot be a good God?

    Funny, isn’t it, how when things go wrong – people start to ask these questions!??!! They might even get angry at the non-existent God (shake fist). And yet all the time things were ok – they didn’t ask about God at all – they certainly didn’t thank him for their great life - is there a clue there?

    Why –does God -let -bad -things -happen? --- Well, Can it be any other way?
    NOOO! Of course not.

    Imagine all the brilliant things that God has made for us – the birds the trees, the land, the stars, the sky, our ability to enjoy them. Sex, Art, all things of the senses, - LIFE itself!

    All these great things and much more he gave us and do you notice? Do you say thanks? No.

    God, gave us perfect - and we turned it down, we decided that our way was better, it all began with Adam and Eve (although I’ll tell you what guy’s, while we are here on our own – if it hadn’t been for Eve, you know the female –Well, who knows eh??  HEAVEN!!!, perhaps!

    But we had it perfect and we chose imperfection, we chose to be unholy, we chose sin.

    Well then, you might say why doesn’t God just make it all perfect again? – Good question, why not, it would be easy for him wouldn’t it?

    Well imagine if you will everything is perfect, no disasters, no illness, no anguish – nothing but perfect. WHY WOULD YOU NEED GOD? You don’t see all his wonders now, you don’t acknowledge all his wonderful works now (except when things go wrong, then you’re tempted to point the finger) so why would you acknowledge him when everything was perfect. You can’t see him, there’s no PROOF that he exists, why on earth would you have any need to believe, surely all this perfection just happened that way – DARWIN or Dawkins might have said so eh??

    No, if everything was perfect we would just sit in our perfect world and say thank you very much I’m quite happy here and this is where I’ll stay. No that wouldn’t do, Look back throughout the old testament God choose some people to be his special ones, he gave them the opportunity to have a perfect land, the Promised Land. God cared for them, He nurtured them, He made things really good for them and each time he did that they forgot who God was, they forgot who they were and turned back to sin and wickedness, -- they loved sin. Time and time again God shows us how we cannot be Holy, we always choose sin and yet we still wonder why things are always perfect, we blame God or curse God because he allows us to have what we most desire i.e. Imperfection and sin.

    But he loves us so much that he gives us a way back and the Old Testament always points to this way back. So when things are bad you have to get up and move on, remember this happens throughout history with Christians, after claiming a land they settle and stagnate and then along comes difficult times and persecution and they leave where they are move to new lands, where they flourish and grow but still left behind are remnants of the old guard who after time flourish again when they recognise God for who he is. The Armenians are one of the earliest and most famous in Christian history to follow this scenario. (barring the Israelites and Judeans) After rebelling against the Ottoman Empire they are persecuted and killed in their millions and the survivors went further into Russia and established the orthodox church, which to this day is very strong. The protestants movement in Europe was persecuted by the Roman Catholic church and eventually moved / emigrated to USA and flourished there as the largest faith, although splitting into many factions at the same time.

    Yes God could give us perfection and we would either already be in Heaven or completely indifferent to God. But he allows decay and evil to live in our world so that we will eventually see God more clearly and actively seek him through our saviour Jesus Christ and with the help of the Holy Spirit.

    So see the great things he does, the wonderful gifts he has given us and rejoice, reach out take his hand and eventually have New Life, perfect life, fore ever. Praise to God Amen.

    Bless you Del LoL Dave
     
  36. Obviously. Please think about it, Dave.

    Yes I notice also how spiders make silk, slugs make slime, flowers make cellulose etc, etc. All of which are complex compounds formed by nature since the earth was formed and not by decomposition.

    How do you know this? You are seeing a problem which you cannot answer and so making up an answer to fit.

    Dave, your belief that you will go to heaven when you die seems pretty incredible to me.

    Like I said you are putting forward conclusions about something which is un-demonstrable as if they are facts in this thread.
     
  37. Dave - you will recall this statement I made the other day which precipitated this thread.
    I think your replies today more than adequately illustrate my point. I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do, and when you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. A final thought - Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned!


    Best wishes

    Mark
     
  38. DTT

    DTT Well-Known Member

    Hi Dave


    Nope none at all, I don't do bitter and angry over religion, just feel utter contempt for all of it actually.

    Oh so you think its because we don't all chant and sing to a wooden effigy with smiles on out faces and clapping our hands staring up to the heavens to give thanks to this all seeing all caring all loving being ?????.

    Dave I came up in the real world and yes have been with babies/children/adults of all races and all religions that were dying through accident or illness and with the parents at the time or in the aftermath of the event many times.

    That is just one example of the type of thing and many other instances over many years gives rise to my cynicism and total contempt for religion of all flavours , along with the misery that has been inflicted in the name of religion since time began in all parts of the world.

    In all that time I have never had anyone tell me sensibly why this happens in this god loving world of ours. They all come out with the same as you have = talking all around the question without giving a direct answer. ( I think our politicians must go to church to learn how to do that as well!! :D ) Sorry Dave I don't buy it

    You go and enjoy your new found way of life and enjoy it whilst you can.

    Your a very intelligent fella Smiffy I'm sure you will see through the hippocracy eventually, but in the meantime I wont spoil your enjoyment

    Cheers Buddy
    Derek;)
     
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