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Role of the spring ligament

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  #61  
Old 14th May 2008, 12:23 PM
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Default Re: Role of the spring ligament

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When I grow up, I want to be an expert too.
Why wait to be an expert, Simon?! Just say you know the experts, say you have done more research then the experts have, publish nothing to show that you have done the research, and then, finally, proclaim on an academic website that you are an expert in the subject. Certainly seems to work for some people!
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  #62  
Old 14th May 2008, 01:42 PM
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Default Re: Role of the spring ligament

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Spooner View Post
When I grow up, I want to be an expert too.
Forget that Wikipedia definition of an expert. Back in the days before powerpoint, I had a slide that defined an expert as: "A person from out of town with a box of slides" ... you could always tell who the experts at a conference were - they walked around with a bx of slides! (now they have powerpoints on USB memory sticks and are not so obvious)
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  #63  
Old 14th May 2008, 02:17 PM
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Default Re: Role of the spring ligament

Hey . . . . . settle down in the cheap seats. How many of us have not been intoxicated by their enthusiasm or obsession, just ask your first girl friends . . . . the hangover is bad enough without being put in the stocks to boot.

cheers

your peacemaking Canuck
(even though we do bludgeon nice cuddly seals to death on the front pages of international colour tabloid magazines)

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  #64  
Old 14th May 2008, 03:11 PM
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Default Re: Role of the spring ligament

Quote:
I had a slide that defined an expert as: "A person from out of town with a box of slides"


I heard that expert is derived from the original spelling ex-spurt. Ex, as in has been and spurt as in a drip under pressure. Fortunatly the only subjects i'm exspurt in are so obscure nobody ever asks!

Hey Kevin (Miller)

Quote:
I am the only one who has done exptensive anatomical research and currently are doing clinical case studies to be followed by trials.
I have an open mind here. I am willing to learn. Thing is i'm still waiting for this stuff

Quote:
I'll ask you the same thing you ask us...don't quote some obscure writing by a quack that doesn't know a labrum from a fat pad and aereolar tissue, take us a photo. For the record, I can't wait until I have the ok to publish some of the stuff we have been working on these last 3 years. The look on some faces will be priceless. Without giving it all away, we DO have 3-D MRI documentation of the over rotated cuboid....we also have an inferiorily subluxed set of tarsals. And yes, we also have post manipulation images showing the correction....it just takes an MRI with a bit more resolution than the 3mm slice available in the USofA. Don't even ask that I send these to the site , you know perfecdtly well that I cannot and ever hope to have them published.
You posted in Jan 07.

As well as the trials you have spoken of in this thread. You make a good point, don't just tell us, show us.

Quote:
As scientist, the day we loose the ability to accept at least the premise of the impossible until it can be proven wrong, is the day we cease to be scientists.
I'm not sure i'd agree here. On that basis we would accept the premise of UFOs, the loch ness monster and even marigold paste reducing IM angles none of which have yet been proven wrong! I'm not sure thats what a scientist is!

In fact can you even prove a negative? Sorry i'm rambling now.

If the proof is out there then in the oft used words of an irish friend of mine, shaw us da gads. Publish already!

Regards
Robert
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  #65  
Old 15th May 2008, 01:55 AM
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Default Re: Role of the spring ligament

Stanley

You wrote
Quote:
A few months ago I had you rub the sides of a patient’s knee to see what would happen. If you remember, the patient was ecstatic.
What exactly did you do? You were working on the fascia, which is a tensile element.
It was more than a few months ago and using the techniques you have kindly showed and discussed with me I have built a very nice technique to improve saggital plane progression and transverse alignment for my patients. The rubbing of joint ligaments and fascia seem to be an important part of this. To stay within my scope of practice as a podiatrist and because more proximal manipulations seem to require more expert application I restrict my technique to the knee and below.

How does it work, by magic No seriously I'm not sure what the mechanism is but would hazard a guess that there is some kind of local stimualtion that is referred to more distal parts via the fascia and muscles to produce changes in muscle and fascia tonus. While this almost always happens proximal to distal eg from knee to foot it only occasionally happend distal to proximal. This as I said is probably due to lackof experience and expertise.

I have no problem with the notion that muscle, ligament and fascia communicate tonus information and synergistically adjust accordingly. Can we imply Biotensegrity from that? not from my point of view.

Chers Dave
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  #66  
Old 15th May 2008, 02:15 AM
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Default Re: Role of the spring ligament

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Smith View Post
Paul

You wrote


When the foot is in full stance and because of frictional forces the PF can have tension in it without that tension being translated to the achilles tendon.

and this


Ye I believe this is pretty much what I said in a previous post when making the analogy of the PF as a muscle more than a ligament.Therefore it may be possible for the anterior and posterior muscles to work synergistically thru the common connective tissue of the Plantar fascia and via the windlass mechaism.

I'm not sure what your point is Paul.

Cheers dave
Dave
May I ask, where do these frictional forces come from? if you are standing still, nothing is moving so I do not kown where friction comes into it.
2 how are the anterior muscles ( I presume tib ant and common extensors) are connected through the common connective tissue.
also I cannot see them working synergistically if the muscles you are talking about.

Probably wrong but let me know.
Paul C
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  #67  
Old 15th May 2008, 05:24 AM
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Default Re: Role of the spring ligament

Paul

There is friction between the ground and the foot these allow vectors that are not just vertical. But thinking about it again, if just quiet standing is considered then vertical forces will still allow tension in the Plantar fascia without any transmission of tension into the Achillles tendon.


When I say synergisticaly I mean they are functionaly synergistic. Traditionally the Anterior tib is antagonistic to the Gastroc soleous complex. However they are synergistic in terms of ataining the foot position or function required.
Therefore the gastroc soleous complex and the anterior group of muscles are synergistic in the function of maintaining the required plantar fascia tension.



Cheers Dave
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  #68  
Old 15th May 2008, 11:16 AM
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Default Re: Role of the spring ligament

Kevin K.

I humbly admit that I have only given 10-15 lectures on the subject. Perhaps more if you consider that I mentioned tensegrity in context. The latest to a group of proffesors and doctoral candidates at Auburn University. My written work, however copious, is not for public consumption as of yet. I am under contract and as much as I would love to simply attach it alll for everyone to read, I cannot.

That said, what makes one an expert? Was Einstien an expert on relativity only AFTER his papers were published? (No I am not comparing myself to Einstein....simply making a point)

What makes me an expert is that I have read and digested EVERYTHING writen about the subject, I have discussed it at length with the other experts like Levin and even Gracovetsky, and I have a number of years of research under my belt just on the subject. I challenge you to ask anyone who knows me....who has met me and seen my work...and ask them if I know what I am talking about. Further, I ask you to challenge me. And understand this. Part of doing the research is figuring out where others have got it a bit wrong, so when I dissagree with the mainstream and say that the articular cartilage acts like a washer and has transient conact, I didn't read someone else's work and come to that conclusion by interpreting like a glorified food critic. I did all the cut-downs and experiments myself. So don't expect me to quote what you read somewhere. But do expect me to be able to explain why I say what I say - as well I should.......if I am going to be an expert, as you suggest.

By the way, What kind research project are you working on now?

Cheers,
Kevin M
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  #69  
Old 15th May 2008, 11:27 AM
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Default Re: Role of the spring ligament

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Smith View Post
Stanley

You wrote




I have no problem with the notion that muscle, ligament and fascia communicate tonus information and synergistically adjust accordingly. Can we imply Biotensegrity from that? not from my point of view.

Chers Dave
Hi David,

I'm not sure I follow. Could you tell me your view of biotensegrity...briefly, of course. You certainly can't make total inference, but there is more than implication from my view point and I want to understand what makes us see this differently.

As an aside, An aclaimed orthopedic surgeon came to spend the day with me yesterday. He came because his feet and back hurt and he couldn't get them well. His travel tine was 6 hours one way. When he got here, the whole idea of tensegrity and manipulative therapy seemed perposterous to him. He left here pain free and accepting of the subject. I realize that is anecdotal, but it happens all the time, so I think someone has given you a screwy idea of how biotensegrity works. It IS different from engineering tensegrity and most everything you write - as and explaination - I could use to explain it myself.

Cheers,
Kevin M
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  #70  
Old 15th May 2008, 11:59 AM
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Default Re: Role of the spring ligament

Dave.

I agree that there is synergy at play here but wonder at what level (s) this is working at. I think that the level of control in a static weight-bearing foot which takes precedence is keeping the vertical vector of body COM within the bounds of the area of contact (balance), overriding this will be feedback suggesting injury in which case some compensatory mechanism will operate changing relative tissue stress or causing cessation of weight-bearing.

Now you say

Quote:
Therefore the gastroc soleous complex and the anterior group of muscles are synergistic in the function of maintaining the required plantar fascia tension.
I would anticipate that the synergy between Tib Ant and triceps is primarily directed at maintaining COM and that PF tension is more likely part of that, but possibly more of a “mechanical intelligence” level in that its role requires no neurological feedback control input other than protection from injury. My understanding is the idea of autosupport is describing exactly this level of synergy.

Trying to integrate all of the degrees of freedom in less or even a single variable seems to me what Turvey’s paper is exploring, and whilst I see this as advantageous don’t have the chops to see how this might work.

At risk of appearing completely out to lunch I have a bit of an idea, which when I consider it further, would like to talk about more in the other thread . . . .. but here the gist.

Turvey, I think rightly points to inadequacy of our understanding of MSK coordination. He points to abstract and logically implied systems which may be in operation which might replace our existing models but, as far as I can see, doesn’t attempt to show how this might work. So . . . OK . . . this may be “science fiction”, but like a lot of science fiction it can contain very compelling and useful ideas. Good science comes FROM highly imaginative minds (rant over before I start) so our expectations at this point are to look for logical flaws and see if something can work (defense completed).

Please see if you can see something below.

I present a list of my presumptions from basic extending into areas of uncertainty within what I understand and need a bit of reality check.

When we approach this problem of identifying a control system we are doing the following;

Assuming that evolution has, by virtue of the uncompromising and ruthless effect of natural selection and passing on the information which that selection is operating on created in our bodies (in every structure in the universe) “mechanical intelligence”.

So far our intelligence has developed a process to explore, understand and control this “force” which we call “science”, some believe that there may be some basic simple law which can explain everything if it is set loose and allowed to do its thing.

To apply science we look for measurable variables and apply statistical methods to separate randomness from other causes of the relationships between the variables.

Ideally we compare the effect of one single variable on another.

In complex systems there are too many interrelated variables (degrees of freedom) to make clear deductions, to improve the situation we may try and reduce the variables to make things more manageable.

To study variables we create an abstract measurement system to quantify them, without this we are stumped.

There are likely things which we are unaware of, but may add confounding variables to the system we are studying (and possibly cause what we might regard as randomness).

The question of synergy ideally would be investigated by identifying some parameter which encompasses many of the degrees of freedom which confound its study. In “science fiction” terms a unit of synergy would be invented.

There seems a growing notion amongst different scientific disciplines that there may be a way of linking energy and matter in terms of “information” in other words everything in the universe is a manifestation of “information” and when energy and matter are moved from one form to another there is this a level at which they both represent the same thing.

if you have the stomach check out this

http://www.nous.org.uk/BFMAP.html

or more specifically this

http://www.nous.org.uk/info.html

and this

http://people.cornell.edu/pages/jag8/path.html

"OK Martin do you really understand this gobble de gook "

"of course not, but I understand its implications"

" then go away and work on something which you do understand"

"OK but I need to know which direction to be heading"

"use a map stupid"

" there is no map for this territory . . . . I'll try asking the natives who understand the lay of the land"


Now is the time to crack a joke . . . ….

pigs are flying, eyes rolling, I can see Simon staring over my shoulder screaming KISS
but this is not a simple subject, perhaps as a podiatrist I am ill equipped to consider this problem, my mind is an escalating positive feedback loop


ahh . . . . . . . .. . the wonders of a good pint of . . . .. . .

The synergy which we may be trying to find may be tied in with this idea, this is purely intuition on my part and I cannot find any logical progression into it, may be crazy and if anyone is interested enough please put me out of my misery.

Synergy is as far as I see it an interaction of information. The restraints to what might happen within the system are predetermined (effects of gravity, limits of tissue strength, durability and power, geometric relationships of structures (down to subatomic level), speed of conduction within the various elements of the nervous system etc) and may be regarded as the evolved “mechanical intelligence”, this has been the domain of biomechanics so far to probe.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding Turvey’s paper, but in my, to date, limited comprehension of his paper, what he seems to be pointing to is considering the idea of finding a higher level of action.

I feel after reading Turveys paper like I have been put through some kind of Zen Koan. This may be simply the effect on the mind of trying to comprehend a paradox; it either creates bliss (there is no question) or insanity (there is no answer).

Please bite on this and spit it back if distasteful …and if you can find me out to lunch let me know and . . . . . .. . . I’ll see you at breakfast (if I am still sane).


cheers

Martin

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Last edited by Mart : 15th May 2008 at 04:53 PM. Reason: added links
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Old 15th May 2008, 02:47 PM
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Wow, Now we find out who is lurjking out there. I have absolutely no reason to NOT expect anything other than what I got in response to that post. On the other hand, it got the OTHER response I wanted as well. I really wish some of you would read the Turvey paper. It is the closest thing I have seen to explaining
what I am talking about.....even without the Zen stuff. You don't have to go there. If you will got to our other thread on Turvey, you can have more fun with us AND read the paper.

That said, in all seriousness, how hard is it for you to believe that I am one of the few doing deep research into this area? No one else seems to believe that a natural arrangement of mass and force defined by the laws of newton and possibly exist andd a state that they don not fully grasp. Just because I haven't published it doesn't mean it doesn't exists. I haven't even submitted it yet. It may be a year. I really wanted my doctorate finished fist. My masters is fine, but both would be better. In the meantime, I can't really write big bites of my material, but then neither do I want to sit completely idle without debate for the next years. I simply implore you all an open mind and I'll return fair debate. But as you arleady know, we are short on references in this area. I have the most extensive basic anatony material on it (that I know of).

Cheers,
Kevin M p.s. keep 'em comin"
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Old 15th May 2008, 04:47 PM
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Default Re: Role of the spring ligament

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin miller View Post
Wow, Now we find out who is lurjking out there. I have absolutely no reason to NOT expect anything other than what I got in response to that post. On the other hand, it got the OTHER response I wanted as well.
.................., I can't really write big bites of my material, but then neither do I want to sit completely idle without debate for the next years. I simply implore you all an open mind and I'll return fair debate. But as you arleady know, we are short on references in this area. I have the most extensive basic anatony material on it (that I know of).

Cheers,
Kevin M p.s. keep 'em comin"

Hi Kevin

As you may appreciate I have intentionally tried to expose a bit of my personality in my posts on this thread and tried to add a bit of intelligent humor to try and defuse what I perceived as destructive tension. I hope I have made it clear that I have no particular axe to grind but feel sensitive to the value of this forum and what people expectations (rightly) are.

I am no academic but I think I understand what academia does and demands.

Those that dedicate a large part of their lives to “finding the truths” have created some expectations in terms of how ideas are presented, they do most of the work in keeping this "accedemic" forum healthy and I suspect they do not want to see its value diluted.

You have to earn respect (they already did that) not demand it (you tried to).

There is a bit of a grey zone which borders acceptable and unacceptable and having hung around this site for a few years, I feel like I know what that is and respect a reasonable tolerance to those of us to veer into that space.

With no intention of insulting you I feel that the scorn which fell on some of your comments was justified, but also that it would be a real shame if that resulted in what I see as the downside of out egos – escalating destructive tension. I recognise a restless and turbulent mind (like my own) full of ideas but which has, within the context of this forum, an unfortunate way of expressing them and which maybe would benefit a bit of conforming to “the rules”.

I made this post public when perhaps I should have made it personal because I think it illustrates a problem which occurs time and again with internet communication between people who have never met and can be a waste of good possibilities. I get the impression that main protagonists of this forum have dedicated their lives to what they comment on which created opportunity to meet face to face and know each other quite well which changes dynamics. I have not met anyone on the forum, and dedicated my life to earning enough money to pay for my lambergini and support my 3 trophy wives.

Apologies to those who see no place for this post, it was quite presumptive of me to take on this role (perhaps I should get out more often). Kevin, if you feel inclined to take issue with what I just said please email me "off" the forum and we can mull it over further and let everyone else get on with the original thread.

Enough of this touchy feely stuff, I need to go take a pill

cheers

Martin

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Last edited by Mart : 15th May 2008 at 05:34 PM. Reason: lack of wizdom
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Old 15th May 2008, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Robertisaacs View Post


I heard that expert is derived from the original spelling ex-spurt. Ex, as in has been and spurt as in a drip under pressure. Fortunatly the only subjects i'm exspurt in are so obscure nobody ever asks!

Hey Kevin (Miller)



I have an open mind here. I am willing to learn. Thing is i'm still waiting for this stuff



You posted in Jan 07.



As well as the trials you have spoken of in this thread. You make a good point, don't just tell us, show us.



I'm not sure i'd agree here. On that basis we would accept the premise of UFOs, the loch ness monster and even marigold paste reducing IM angles none of which have yet been proven wrong! I'm not sure thats what a scientist is!

In fact can you even prove a negative? Sorry i'm rambling now.

If the proof is out there then in the oft used words of an irish friend of mine, shaw us da gads. Publish already!

Regards
Robert
PS
Mart


Robert, for the record, the MRI stuff I spoke of in Jan was done by someone else. I don't think he minds anyone looking at that data, I'll ask him. As for my work, I know you understand a multi-year project. I have just been throwing out bits of stuff I have learned the past 3 years. I am getting closer to submission, however, and I promise that as soon as I can I will release all of my work on this site. Early on, I would get a bit self conscious when I drew ire, but now that I have seen the same things over and over again in my work, I simply am biding my time until I can show folks like you.

Thanks you very much,
Kevin M
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Old 15th May 2008, 09:06 PM
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Default Re: Role of the spring ligament

Kevin Miller:

Until you can somehow show me that the joints of the foot and lower extremity are not subjected to compression forces so that the compression elements of the foot and lower extremity (i.e. bones) do not interact with other bones via compression forces, or exhibit "discontinuous compression", as described within the definition of tensegrity , then I will not believe that tensegrity can be used to usefully describe the function of the foot and lower extremity. When you get your PhD, and the subject of your doctoral thesis is on tensegrity, then I will consider you an expert on the subject of tensegrity. I won't be holding my breath.

By the way, self-proclaimed experts don't impress me or many others since real experts don't need to proclaim they are experts. Real experts always have plenty of others that are gladly willing to give them that that title, without ever needing to proclaim their own greatness.
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Sincerely,

Kevin

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Old 15th May 2008, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
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Kevin Miller:

Since you proclaim yourself to be an expert in tensegrity, please list all the articles and/or books you have written or lectures you have given on the subject of tensegrity.
Kevin K.

When you wrote the above, had made no such comment. I merely agreed with you after the fact to see what you would do, which was pedictable.
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Old 16th May 2008, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Kevin Kirby View Post
Kevin Miller:

Until you can somehow show me that the joints of the foot and lower extremity are not subjected to compression forces so that the compression elements of the foot and lower extremity (i.e. bones) do not interact with other bones via compression forces, or exhibit "discontinuous compression", as described within the definition of tensegrity , then I will not believe that tensegrity can be used to usefully describe the function of the foot and lower extremity. When you get your PhD, and the subject of your doctoral thesis is on tensegrity, then I will consider you an expert on the subject of tensegrity. I won't be holding my breath.

By the way, self-proclaimed experts don't impress me or many others since real experts don't need to proclaim they are experts. Real experts always have plenty of others that are gladly willing to give them that that title, without ever needing to proclaim their own greatness.
Why is it you cling to things like a Wikepedia difinition of Tensegrity when we are talking about biotensegrity? I have said repeatedly that the engineers and artists who use tensegrity say that they are copying nature. They neither have the materials or the understanding to recreate biotensegrity. The fellow who coined the word - Kenneth Snelson - never said that nature looked like his work, he said his work looked LIKE nature. The point is, that engineering principles will nevere totally fit nature.

I have explained twice now and Paul once how dicontinous compression occurs.

By the way, as lomg as I go completely against the grain, I will in no manner have anyone proclaiming me an expert. Besides, see my previous post on this matter. And lastly, I don't think I am great, I just work hard and would like to run ideas past people who will discuss them rather thanact like I have done something fould in their cornflakes. Disagreement I can understand, but you responses border on vitriol.

Kevin M
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Old 16th May 2008, 12:46 AM
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Default Re: Role of the spring ligament

Kevin M
Quote:
Why is it you cling to things like a Wikepedia difinition of Tensegrity when we are talking about biotensegrity?
I suspect i am not the only person here who would benifit from a brief read of YOUR definition of bio-tensegrity.

It has probably been posted before in which case a link to that page will be fine!

Its a long running debate and a lot of folk will be coming in half way and wondering what the hell you and KK are arguing about!

Much ta
Robert
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Old 16th May 2008, 01:54 AM
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Default Re: Role of the spring ligament

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Kirby View Post
Kevin Miller:

Until you can somehow show me that the joints of the foot and lower extremity are not subjected to compression forces so that the compression elements of the foot and lower extremity (i.e. bones) do not interact with other bones via compression forces, or exhibit "discontinuous compression", as described within the definition of tensegrity , then I will not believe that tensegrity can be used to usefully describe the function of the foot and lower extremity. When you get your PhD, and the subject of your doctoral thesis is on tensegrity, then I will consider you an expert on the subject of tensegrity. I won't be holding my breath.

By the way, self-proclaimed experts don't impress me or many others since real experts don't need to proclaim they are experts. Real experts always have plenty of others that are gladly willing to give them that that title, without ever needing to proclaim their own greatness.
Mate

I am not going places, but... you proclaimed in 2005 at The UK summer school" that bow legged people of which you are one, run faster.

There was a Rock band in Australia called Midnight Oil. The lead singer Peter Garret is now a politician.

he had a song and there was a line in it " short term memory my fellow man"...
Applies here.

Stop just believing in what you believe and open your eyes.

Just have a look at the links to how cellular tensegrity works. If it works at a cellular level why in the hell does it not work in the foot! ie macro level?

I am just sitting on the fence, but have a good memory of what you said at that workshop....

If you want to get nasty, That's fine, but what I have written you said and I can get several others that were there to back me up.

Now who is the expert?

Just stick to being nice.

Remember that Sir William Harvey was to be burnt at the stake for describing circulation. He took protection in a church just around the corner from the Tower of london and in Durham cathedral near Newcastle on Tine. His name is inscribed on the roll of honour there.

Just a friendly reminder for all.

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Old 16th May 2008, 01:58 AM
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Default Re: Role of the spring ligament

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Originally Posted by David Smith View Post
Paul

There is friction between the ground and the foot these allow vectors that are not just vertical. But thinking about it again, if just quiet standing is considered then vertical forces will still allow tension in the Plantar fascia without any transmission of tension into the Achillles tendon.


When I say synergisticaly I mean they are functionaly synergistic. Traditionally the Anterior tib is antagonistic to the Gastroc soleous complex. However they are synergistic in terms of ataining the foot position or function required.
Therefore the gastroc soleous complex and the anterior group of muscles are synergistic in the function of maintaining the required plantar fascia tension.



Cheers Dave
Dave

I am sorry but i do not agree with you. Your diagram has the great toe bent up. I certainly do not do this when I stand still.

When I examine patients, if I see any activity of the Tibialis Anterior within 1 minute of standing still after they take six marching steps on the spot with their eyes closed and then open then as a dysfunction somehwere.
I believe that there shoud be no activity here for at least 1 minute after stopping motion.

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Old 16th May 2008, 05:35 AM
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Default Re: Role of the spring ligament

Kevin M

You wrote
Quote:
I'm not sure I follow. Could you tell me your view of biotensegrity...briefly, of course. You certainly can't make total inference, but there is more than implication from my view point and I want to understand what makes us see this differently.
My view is it (biotensegrity) does not exist in terms of pure tensegrity as defined by Flemmons TE 2007

A tensegrity (structure) requires at minimum three conditions to fit either Kenneth Snelson's or Buckminster Fuller's definition.

1. A continuous connective tensioned network supports discontinuous compression struts. Snelson insists that struts must be free floating in a web of tension and not touching. A geodesic dome, which Fuller considers to be tensegrities, has multiple compression struts meeting at central hubs but they are discontinuously connected, that is, they do not transfer compressive loads. In these domes it is the tension forces that travel along the outer edges of the struts that are continuous. Similarly, if anatomical structures operate as tensegrities, then in most orientations the bones do not pass a direct load across the joint– rather the tension members; ligaments, tendons, and fascia transfer loads and the bones float in this tension matrix.

2) All tensegrities are prestressed under tension; they are self–supporting and independent of gravity. But the weight of the structure also adds to the prestress. As you increase the weight load the tensegrity tightens and gets smaller. The heavier the structure is, the greater the tension, and the less the range of motion. This presents real design problems when trying to model living systems that have and use joints with multiple degrees of freedom. My models for example can emulate biologic movement because I use elastic tension nets that are taut enough to maintain the shape of the model yet have enough residual elasticity to move through a wide range of positions. When the size and weight of a model increases, so does the prestress. It is always surprising to discover how high the tension levels climb when building large tensegrity structures. In some of Snelson’s largest sculptures (50’–100’) the tensile cables carry thousands of pounds of force. To make human scale tensegrity models that articulate and are prestressed is not a trivial challenge.

3) Tensegrities are self–contained non–redundant whole systems. All components are dynamically linked such that forces are translated instantly everywhere; a change in one part is reflected throughout. These features distinguish tensegrities from all other tension structures, e.g. a radio mast or a sailboat’s mast is fixed at the base and needs that fixed point to keep it upright. The boat does not need the mast for it’s integrity but the reverse is not true. Every part in a tensegrity is reliant on the entire structure for its continued existence. In terms of living forms, a discontinuity in a structure marks the boundary or interface between separate tensegrities. Also, molecules within cells within tissues within organs within bodies, and bodies within environments are all synergistically linked tensegrities in a hierarchical cascade from the smallest wholes to the largest


Flemmons, while aknowledging the possibilities of biotensegrity also points out the limitations of the reality.

Like I said I am comfortable with the notion of interconnected synergies of the anatomy and clearly redundancy as a theme runs through out the musculo-skeletal system. Theses synergies are most likely to be reactive and proactive and fortunately (in terms of evaluation) common activities have common muscle actions to control joint excursions and effect the velocity and magnitude of limb and joint displacement. Even tho it appears that these synergies exist it is not so clear that they are universally and instantly communicated thru the entire body.
I believe the cascade of synergism may be more hierarchical in that the larger the displacement and the more important it is to stability and balance the more far reaching the cascade. There may also be a time element where the longer the displacement the more far reaching the reactive cascade may eventually be.
It would appear to me that this is the only way a functioning biological mechanism could conserve its integrity.

We as humans have not yet come close to constructing a mechanism that has the sophistication of a biological organism and tensegrity structure have not, as far as I know, increased our ability to do so. As far as I know there are no mechanisms that incorporate tensegrity into its design. Especially where that design includes the joint mechanisms that must have wide and varied range of motion available.

As I have said before Kevin if your definition of Biotensegrity allows violation of the three principles above insomuch as continuous compression can me allowed and that joints do have compresive forces and are not entirely floating i a triangular tension system and that there is redundancy in the biological system and that any pertubance in the system does not necessarily transmit thru the whole biological system then I can agree that there is Biotensegrity in terms of those definitions.

I can also agree that a swan is a duck as long as you allow violation of the definition of a swan to include that it can be much smaller, has lots of coloured plumage has yellow chicks and quacks.

If your definition of Biotensegrity is that it is a system of hierarchical structures from the microscopic to the macroscopic and from the individual tissue to the entire musculo-skeletal system and that each component and that whole structure relies on the mutual integrity of both. Then I also can agree with this.

This next paper has set out very clearly its definitions and uses accepted mechanical explanations.

Chen C and Ingber D Osteoarthritis and Cartilage (1999) 7, 81–94
Tensegrity and mechanoregulation: from skeleton to cytoskeleton
Appear to follow this definition.

Summary
Objective: To elucidate how mechanical stresses that are applied to the whole organism are transmitted to individual
cells and transduced into a biochemical response.
Design: In this article, we describe fundamental design principles that are used to stabilize the musculoskeletal
system at many di#erent size scales and show that these design features are embodied in one particular form of
architecture that is known as tensegrity.
Results: Tensegrity structures are characterized by use of continuous tension and local compression; architecture,
prestress (internal stress prior to application of external force), and triangulation play the most critical roles in terms
of determining their mechanical stability. In living organisms, use of a hierarchy of tensegrity networks both optimizes
structural e$ciency and provides a mechanism to mechanically couple the parts with the whole: mechanical stresses
applied at the macroscale result in structural rearrangements at the cell and molecular level.
Conclusion: Due to use of tensegrity architecture, mechanical stress is concentrated and focused on signal
transducing molecules that physically associate with cell surface molecules that anchor cells to extracellular matrix,
such as integrins, and with load-bearing elements within the internal cytoskeleton and nucleus. Mechanochemical
transduction may then proceed through local stress-dependent changes in molecular mechanics, thermodynamics, and
kinetics within the cell. In this manner, the entire cellular response to stress may be orchestrated and tuned by altering
the prestress in the cell, just as changing muscular tone can alter mechanical stability and structural coordination
throughout the whole musculoskeletal system.


Later in more detail they say

The stable position of the bones that articulate
at any joint depends on the tensile forces of the
muscles, tendons, and ligaments that bridge them.
In the knee, for example, the cartilagenous regions
at the end of apposing bones come into direct
contact due to compression (Fig. 1). Most of this
compression is not due to gravity, rather it is
created by the surrounding ligaments and tendons
that crosses the joint, and these are always under
tension. The internal tension and/or pre-stress in
this system stabilizes the joint: even when the
bones are pulled away from each other (e.g., hanging
upside down), the joint does not dislocate. In
reality, there are multiple muscles, tendons, and
ligaments that contribute to the structure of each
joint and the number and position of these tensile
elements (i.e., the architectural arrangement) play
a critical role in defining the joint’s potential
strength, power, speed, and range of motion. To
understand the critical importance of these internal
tensions and/or pre-stress in this complex
structure, one only needs to examine the case
where tendons and ligaments loosen: this results
in joint instability, increased wear on the articular
cartilage, pain, and loss of function


But clearly they allow joint compression which would indicate non floating struts and continuous compression. Which violates Flemmon and Snellon and Buckminster Fuller's definition. Is your definition more inline with that of Chen et al?

and they elaborate on this

The tensegrity structures are constructed by
interconnecting a set of isolated compression
struts with a continuous series of tension wires
that pull the struts up against the force of gravity
and stabilize them in an open array (Fig. 5 top).
These simple structures are the most striking
examples of tensegrity and clearly visualize its
basic mechanism of self-stabilization. However,
structures do not have to contain isolated struts
and wires to be defined as tensegrity structures.
Rather, it is how a structure distributes stresses to
establish a force balance and stabilize itself
against shape distortion that defines tensegrity.


DO NOT HAVE TO HAVE DISCONTINUOUS COMPRESSION (weakening the definition)

At the end of the day we are really not a million miles apart its just a matter of definition. Once you can accept that tensegrity in the loose terms that are defined by Chen and I suspect you Kevin then you will also accept that it is merely an extension of normal mechanical structure but far more sophisticated than man can build. This confounds our ability to characterise, analyse and evaluste the mechanism even tho we may have a firm grasp of the principle of operation. As Martin has said there are many degress of freedom in terms of the variables and the ability to test caustation and not just correlation. I believe when you accept this you will be able to present your well researched theories in a manner more acceptable to the establishment.

Since every loaded structure is in a state of compression and tension and only tension and compression, the term tensegrity becomes redundant when not refering to a rigorous definition of discontinuous compression in a triangular tension system. Perhasp a name like Synergistic Hierarchical Bio Mechanism (SHBoM ) would be more decriptive and accurate. We all knew this anyway (i believe) but we just haven't given the system a formal name.

All the best Dave
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Old 16th May 2008, 06:00 AM
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Default Re: Role of the spring ligament

Quote:
Originally Posted by musmed View Post
Mate

I am not going places, but... you proclaimed in 2005 at The UK summer school" that bow legged people of which you are one, run faster.

There was a Rock band in Australia called Midnight Oil. The lead singer Peter Garret is now a politician.

he had a song and there was a line in it " short term memory my fellow man"...
Applies here.

Stop just believing in what you believe and open your eyes.

Just have a look at the links to how cellular tensegrity works. If it works at a cellular level why in the hell does it not work in the foot! ie macro level?

I am just sitting on the fence, but have a good memory of what you said at that workshop....

If you want to get nasty, That's fine, but what I have written you said and I can get several others that were there to back me up.

Now who is the expert?

Just stick to being nice.

Remember that Sir William Harvey was to be burnt at the stake for describing circulation. He took protection in a church just around the corner from the Tower of london and in Durham cathedral near Newcastle on Tine. His name is inscribed on the roll of honour there.

Just a friendly reminder for all.

Paul Conneely
ww.musmed.com.au
I don't like having words put into my mouth. I never said that people with tibial varum all run faster than people than straight legs. What I did say was that many better runners have tibial varum likely due to their ability to avoid chronic overuse injuries to the knee with increased training mileage. Please pay better attention when you attend one of my other international lectures.

By the way, Paul, my eyes are open, but I am not gullible.
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Kevin

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Last edited by Kevin Kirby : 16th May 2008 at 07:28 AM.
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Old 16th May 2008, 06:57 AM
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Default Re: Role of the spring ligament

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin miller View Post
Disagreement I can understand, but you responses border on vitriol.
Kevin M
Mr. Miller:

Just returning the favor from a posting you made to me about a year ago on JISC mailbase. By the way, you may want to invest in a spell checker before you do that doctoral thesis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Miller, 6/3/07, JISC Mailbase
Kevin Kirby,

I'm going to make this short and sweet with short words so that maybe it might sink in just a little. There is not one thing in that article that has not been said to you at some point or other by someone on this serve, but we all gave a caveat, which you failed to mention was missing from the article. Engeneering tensegrity deviates from biotensegrity in that there is no constant change in the tensil structures of the engineering tensile structures - they are static In biotensegrity we have to take into account that muscle tone is constantly changeing, and that muscle torque outout changes separately when the compressive sturctre/ position is altered by normal movement. This does not happen in a static tensegrity model. You know, I am sure that I gave some website where you could go read a number of article that explain tensegrity in small peiced. So your snide little off-handed remark about David Smith being the only one to send in anything usefulis bunk perpetuated by those who don't want to learnn in ther first place- just argue. If you read another pure engineering tensegrity model and call it god withou taking into account the other parts we have told you about, you will find your self in a few year speaking to a small group of followers who are noy quite able to grasp the difficulty of Biotensegrity, which , once again, is far different that engineering tenserity, I have grown bored with this conversation. It has been one groop arguing about one thing and another tying to explain soething else entirly. I sure those reading are very confused as are some that are writing One canot make a silk purse from a sows ear. So I give up. Make noe mistake thout, the selfish frive that causes these arguents hurts the poeple listening. One group know what they are taking about, while the other contnetns themselves fith attemptin to find a whole in the eplaination mso that they can say " gotcha" when they have nothing but hot air. Enjoy you confusion of thousands of people.

Kevin M p.s. don't bother to reply.
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Old 16th May 2008, 07:34 AM
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Default Re: Role of the spring ligament

Mr Kirby,

You are quite welcome, and the point is made. I really can't believe you kept that post this long. It was a good one, hey? It did need a spell check, though. Are we even yet? I would much rather trade knowledge than insults, but I'll keep this up as long as they let us.....which shouldn't be too much longer if I were the moderators. As for the spell checker, I usee it abot evry 2d or 3rd timr, which is better than most. In any case, I tire of this, so let's either get back to something useful or quit. Agreed?

Kevin
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Old 16th May 2008, 08:23 AM
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Default Re: Role of the spring ligament

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin miller View Post
Mr Kirby,

You are quite welcome, and the point is made. I really can't believe you kept that post this long. It was a good one, hey? It did need a spell check, though. Are we even yet? I would much rather trade knowledge than insults, but I'll keep this up as long as they let us.....which shouldn't be too much longer if I were the moderators. As for the spell checker, I usee it abot evry 2d or 3rd timr, which is better than most. In any case, I tire of this, so let's either get back to something useful or quit. Agreed?

Kevin
Agreed. Please let's talk about something other than tensegrity and/or biotensegrity. I'm sure that there are plenty of other subjects that both of us would rather discuss with each other and with the others following along.

Have a nice weekend.
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Old 16th May 2008, 10:48 AM
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Default Re: Role of the spring ligament

Paul

Quote:
I am sorry but i do not agree with you. Your diagram has the great toe bent up. I certainly do not do this when I stand still.
When I examine patients, if I see any activity of the Tibialis Anterior within 1 minute of standing still after they take six marching steps on the spot with their eyes closed and then open then as a dysfunction somehwere.
I believe that there shoud be no activity here for at least 1 minute after stopping motion.
This diagram is open chain eg in ipsilateral swing thru, most people dorsiflex their toes during swing thru. But the same diagram (+GRF vectors) could apply to the example you gave of standing on the hard bathroom or kitchen floor with toes dorsiflexed.

When standing in RCSP it is usual but not necessary to have tension in both the Plantar fascia and achilles tendon at the same time. The lesser toes do not need to dorsiflex or contact the ground for there to be tension the plantar fascia in resting stance.

Are you messin with my head or have one of us lost lost the plot?

Regards Dave
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Old 16th May 2008, 11:12 AM
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Default Re: Role of the spring ligament

Kevin M

You wrote
Quote:
As an aside, An aclaimed orthopedic surgeon came to spend the day with me yesterday. He came because his feet and back hurt and he couldn't get them well. His travel tine was 6 hours one way. When he got here, the whole idea of tensegrity and manipulative therapy seemed perposterous to him. He left here pain free and accepting of the subject. I realize that is anecdotal, but it happens all the time
,

I often have people who have been to many other specialists and get better after one consultaion and intervention from me.

Today a lady who I had not see for about a year came in for some 4mm heel lifts.
She came in a year ago with hip and back pain as a secondary complaint to her chiropody treatment. Mentioning her long standing hip and back pain I noticed that she had an apparent l.l.d. and fitted her a 4mm heel lift. Today, as I said, she came in for some more and commented that she had not had a minute of pain since I fitted the heel lift. She had spent five years previous to this in pain and seeking treatment from hospital specialists and GP to no avail. "I come here and you fix me in five minutes it's incredible" she said.

This is a fairly common occurence but, since nobody ever comes back not to buy heel lifts because they were crap, it in fact proves nothing to anyone except me of course and I think it proves that I am a wonderful faith healer. I have actually been told this by several customers "Are you a spiritual healer dear I can sense your healing aura"

Things happen and I take from it what I need but proving that things happen in the way I percieve them to be, is another whole long and labourious ball game.

All the best Dave
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Old 16th May 2008, 11:18 AM
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Default Re: Role of the spring ligament

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Smith View Post
Kevin M

You wrote


My view is it (biotensegrity) does not exist in terms of pure tensegrity as defined by Flemmons TE 2007 .............

lots of good stuff


Since every loaded structure is in a state of compression and tension and only tension and compression, the term tensegrity becomes redundant when not refering to a rigorous definition of discontinuous compression in a triangular tension system. Perhasp a name like Synergistic Hierarchical Bio Mechanism (SHBoM ) would be more decriptive and accurate. We all knew this anyway (i believe) but we just haven't given the system a formal name.

All the best Dave
Fabulous post Dave - more on the other thread when (if) I find time to articulate something approaching this level of reason.




cheers

Martin

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Old 16th May 2008, 11:58 AM
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Default Re: Role of the spring ligament

Mart

Thanks, I also have thoroughly enjoyed your intelligent contributions to Podiatry Arena .

Group Hug

Cheers Dave
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Old 17th May 2008, 01:54 AM
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Default Re: Role of the spring ligament

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Kirby View Post
I don't like having words put into my mouth. I never said that people with tibial varum all run faster than people than straight legs. What I did say was that many better runners have tibial varum likely due to their ability to avoid chronic overuse injuries to the knee with increased training mileage. Please pay better attention when you attend one of my other international lectures.

By the way, Paul, my eyes are open, but I am not gullible.
Dear Kevin

I suppose I and other will have to have their ears washed out!

I reiterate this is not what you said. You may have thought that, but what you said certainly did not come out in these terms.

Please pay better attention.... maybe you should pay attention to what you say and then my attention will not need comment.
I will be happy to attend a local lecture if that makes what you say any better... I doubt it.

mate don't take Aussie for a joke. We ALL heard what you said and what you said was gospel according to you.

I will leave it at that.
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Old 17th May 2008, 01:57 AM
musmed musmed is offline
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Default Re: Role of the spring ligament

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Smith View Post
Kevin M

You wrote
,

I often have people who have been to many other specialists and get better after one consultaion and intervention from me.

Today a lady who I had not see for about a year came in for some 4mm heel lifts.
She came in a year ago with hip and back pain as a secondary complaint to her chiropody treatment. Mentioning her long standing hip and back pain I noticed that she had an apparent l.l.d. and fitted her a 4mm heel lift. Today, as I said, she came in for some more and commented that she had not had a minute of pain since I fitted the heel lift. She had spent five years previous to this in pain and seeking treatment from hospital specialists and GP to no avail. "I come here and you fix me in five minutes it's incredible" she said.

This is a fairly common occurence but, since nobody ever comes back not to buy heel lifts because they were crap, it in fact proves nothing to anyone except me of course and I think it proves that I am a wonderful faith healer. I have actually been told this by several customers "Are you a spiritual healer dear I can sense your healing aura"

Things happen and I take from it what I need but proving that things happen in the way I percieve them to be, is another whole long and labourious ball game.

All the best Dave
Dave

May I be so bold as to ask how you "notice an apparent leg lenght difference" and what does this mean?

Thanks in advance

Paul Conneely
www.musmed.com.au
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