Home Forums Marketplace Table of Contents Events Member List Site Map Register Mark Forums Read



Welcome to the Podiatry Arena forums, for communication between foot health professionals about podiatry and related topics.

You are currently viewing our podiatry forum as a guest which gives you limited access to view all podiatry discussions and access our other features. By joining our free global community of Podiatrists and other interested foot health care professionals you will have access to post podiatry topics (answer and ask questions), communicate privately with other members (PM), upload content, view attachments, receive a weekly email update of new discussions, earn CPD points and access many other special features. Registered users do not get displayed the advertisments in posted messages. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our global Podiatry community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.


Tags: ,

Silicone Dynamic Orthotics

Reply
Submit Thread >  Submit to Digg Submit to Reddit Submit to Furl Submit to Del.icio.us Submit to Google Submit to Yahoo! This Submit to Technorati Submit to StumbleUpon Submit to Spurl Submit to Netscape  < Submit Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 25th May 2008, 06:16 AM
Dr. DSW Dr. DSW is offline
Senior Member
 
About:
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 56
Join Date: Apr 2008
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts
Default Re: Silicone Dynamic Orthotics

Podiatry Arena members do not see these ads
As I've already stated, I have actually seen, touched and felt a pair of SDO's. Jeremy, we have personally spoken regarding this matter and I know you also have experience with this product.

Given Dr. Kiper's theories and claims, and the actual volume of fluid enclosed within the vinyl walls of his product, can you even fathom that the limited volume of fluid would have any real effect on controlling pronatory forces on the joints of an individual over 50 pounds?

We are talking about a device that is approximately 1/4 inch thick maximum, if it's even that thick. So, when the fluid is displaced to provide support when it's "needed" on a 175 pound patient, you tell me exactly how that amount of fluid is going to control that amount of force and limit motion.

The product simply supplies a small amount of cushioning while a patient is in motion, but statically, the fluid is dispersed away from areas of high pressure, causing increased discomfort from my personal experience. But then again, Dr. Kiper will simply say I didn't give his product a fair chance, proper adjustments, etc.

An interesting point that has not surfaced on this site, is that on a different forum Dr. Kiper has told patients that it may take YEARS to see improvement even with the use of the SDO's. I can just imagine telling my patients that the orthoses I dispense may have to be "tweaked" for several years prior to obtaining relief.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #32  
Old 25th May 2008, 08:54 AM
David Wedemeyer's Avatar
David Wedemeyer David Wedemeyer is offline
Podiatry Arena Veteran
 
About:
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Costa Mesa, CA
Posts: 854
Join Date: Apr 2008
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 394
Thanked 155 Times in 106 Posts
Default Re: Silicone Dynamic Orthotics

David

I have no wish to spar with Dennis any longer over his device, I will leave that to the better minds here should they deem it necessary. We have exhaustively discussed its design, material and fallacious biomechanical suppositions, at times very heatedly. If Dennis continues to post he will expose himself to ridicule amongst his peers on a scale that he probably has not experienced before. Trust me when I say that dogmatic is a word that does no justice to his fervor for distorting known biomechanical fact and peer reviewed, supportive literature to promote his product favorably.

I believe that you have put his faulty notions most succinctly to rest. I also believe that Kevin has a position that is very different from Dennis' but is holding back, he did after all warn him that he will be shot out of the water should he continue on. I don't think that trying to persuade his colleagues here, many of whom are amongst the very top minds in biomechanics, are published, involved in ongoing research into the efficacy of orthoses and are not readily fooled (if ever) will aid in his cause.

My biggest concern is that the people who are afforded this silicone bag of avarice are not examined professionally, there is no history taken beyond a questionnaire and email, no plain film or labs etc. When I complained to him that the insert he provided me was failing he asked me to simply turn them over and switch them right for left. That was the point that I was not willing to pursue this charade any further.

As for Hatton I was not able to watch the fight but I hear that he did prevail and in his hometown. A great victory because Lazcano is a very seasoned and formidable opponent in my opinion.

The pride of England!

Cheers,
__________________
"If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance." - Orville Wright

David G. Wedemeyer, D.C., C.Ped.
Thread Starter
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 25th May 2008, 11:45 AM
Simon Spooner's Avatar
Simon Spooner Simon Spooner is offline
Podiatry Arena Veteran
 
About:
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: "I'm sick of flags - whatever colour. There's only one flag - the white flag.": Paul Hewson
Posts: 7,691
Join Date: Aug 2005
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 435
Thanked 1,023 Times in 753 Posts
Default Re: Silicone Dynamic Orthotics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Kiper View Post
I suppose I should have said a "corrected" alignment through the use of a proper fitting orthotic that balances the forefoot to rearfoot relationship concurrent with STJ neutral.
You make the assumption that kinematic change occurs with SDO, what data can you offer to support this conjecture? How do SDO orthoses "balance the forefoot to rearfoot relationship concurrent with STJ neutral"? Why is this important?
__________________
Who? What? When? Why? Yeah? And? So? What?

"My mission drive is to open up my eyes, 'cause the wicked lies and all the sh!te you say..." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4NW5S1UTPQ

"Science is the antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition."
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 25th May 2008, 12:07 PM
Simon Spooner's Avatar
Simon Spooner Simon Spooner is offline
Podiatry Arena Veteran
 
About:
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: "I'm sick of flags - whatever colour. There's only one flag - the white flag.": Paul Hewson
Posts: 7,691
Join Date: Aug 2005
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 435
Thanked 1,023 Times in 753 Posts
Default Re: Silicone Dynamic Orthotics

If surface stiffness is important in reduction of injuries and improving efficiency in running as suggested by McMahon and more recently, by Nigg's work, then a variable pressure "bag" my be quite a useful adjunct to more traditional orthoses- so perhaps Dr. Kiper may be partially right but for the wrong reason's? In many respects this mirrors much of the work of Root et al; right but for the wrong reasons. Perhaps Dr. K. is looking through the wrong lens to try to describe the effects he believes his insoles are capable of?

Has anyone actually done any "proper" research, not necessarily with Dr. K's product, but with similar technologies? Clearly, the running shoe companies have which is why we have gel/ air sacs in our trainers, but has anyone really researched orthoses that incorporate these technologies? I suspect not. So maybe.... In this way Dr. K. will challenge the world! (maybe)

Maybe, its just that I always wanted to fight for the underdog:-0. Anyway, "for the benefit of Dr. K. there's going to be a show tonight..." Not on trampoline, on You Tube instead (modern times, who'd have 'em?):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_rbsZw_7nE
Turin Brakes: Underdog (Save Me)
Two black line streaming out like a guidance line.
Put one foot on the road now where the sybourgs are driving,
With the WD-40 in their veins the screeching little brakes complain.
With the briefcase empty and the holes in my shoes,
I try to stay friendly for the sugary abuse.
So tell my secretary now to hold all of my calls,
I believe I can hear through these walls.
Oh please save me, save me from myself.
I can’t be the only one stuck on the shelf.
You said you’d always fall for the underdog.

Well I’ve been dreaming of jetstreams and kicking up dust,
A thirty seven thousand foot of wonderlust
And with skyline number 9 ticked off in my mind,
Oh can you hear me screaming out now through the telephone line.

Oh please save me, save me from myself.
I can’t be the only one stuck on the shelf.
You said you’d always fall for the underdog
__________________
Who? What? When? Why? Yeah? And? So? What?

"My mission drive is to open up my eyes, 'cause the wicked lies and all the sh!te you say..." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4NW5S1UTPQ

"Science is the antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition."

Last edited by Simon Spooner : 25th May 2008 at 12:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 25th May 2008, 03:05 PM
Robertisaacs's Avatar
Robertisaacs Robertisaacs is offline
Podiatry Arena Veteran
 
About:
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Kent
Posts: 4,285
Join Date: May 2006
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 454
Thanked 897 Times in 523 Posts
Default Re: Silicone Dynamic Orthotics

I was really trying to keep an open mind. Up to this little gem

Quote:
I suppose I should have said a "corrected" alignment through the use of a proper fitting orthotic that balances the forefoot to rearfoot relationship concurrent with STJ neutral.

Quote:

Despite NO one subscribing to his theory, NO orthotic lab "buying" his idea, NO podiatric medical school teaching his "theories", NO biomechanical gurus believing or subscribing to his views, he still insists that we all just "don't get it".
How often do we see this?

Its a gimmick

Regretfully
Robert
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 25th May 2008, 06:40 PM
Kevin Kirby's Avatar
Kevin Kirby Kevin Kirby is offline
Podiatry Arena Veteran
Most Valuable Poster (MVP)
 
About:
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,333
Join Date: Nov 2004
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 380
Thanked 2,061 Times in 1,139 Posts
Default Re: Silicone Dynamic Orthotics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Kiper View Post
Kevin,

I appreciate your words of advice. I realize that my technology may not suit yours and others thinking, but what do you see as the problem with the presentation of a new technology and the opportunity to think about it?

Is this forum only for one way of thinking?

Dennis:

I encourage many ways of thinking. However, selling an insole product on an academic website where you actually have people who can challenge your ideas seems to have not been as easy for you as it has on other discussion forums, has it, Dennis?

Unfortunately, your mention of STJ neutral and aligning the forefoot to rearfoot made me realize that you have very little knowledge of the current research and theories of orthosis function. Have you now left the site because a few people have disagreed with you and you now don't have the time to answer their questions?? Come on, Dennis, I was looking forward to hearing you explain how a silicone orthosis somehow supported a "rigid forefoot valgus" and prevented "supination compensation".

Dennis, this forum is for open discussion of ideas which have scientific merit. However, it is not for individuals with only one way of thinking who want to sell an insole product and don't want to take the time to answer the questions of critics who want to know what he is talking about and question the scientific basis behind his product.

I'm sure you will find another forum that is much easier to deal with where people won't disagree with you so much. That is what you are looking for...aren't you?? Happy Memorial Day!
__________________
Sincerely,

Kevin

**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College

E-mail: kevinakirby@comcast.net
Website: www.KirbyPodiatry.com

Private Practice:
107 Scripps Drive, Suite 200
Sacramento, CA 95825 USA
My location

Voice: (916) 925-8111 Fax: (916) 925-8136
**************************************************
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 25th May 2008, 07:32 PM
Dr. DSW Dr. DSW is offline
Senior Member
 
About:
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 56
Join Date: Apr 2008
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts
Default Re: Silicone Dynamic Orthotics

Dr. Kirby/Kevin,

You have eloquently and accurately assessed Dr. Kiper's entire method of operation. However, since this forum is unique, and there are actual experts on biomechanics, he has hit a wall regarding trying to spin his mumbo jumbo into some form of convincing "tale".

On other forums, he has an audience without the knowledge of the members of this forum. Therefore, he rants and raves about his product and unfounded theories, while constantly stating that the "old technology" simply does not work.

There are those of us including myself, Jeremy (a Cped), Dr. Wedemeyer, etc., that have constantly challenged his theories and challenged the ethics of treating patients over the internet without an examination, thorough history, etc. We've challenged the ridiculous idea that his "one size fits all" product can heal almost all foot pathology via stepping in a foam box and sending it to him and having him treat you over the internet.

And despite our concerns, the reply we ALWAYS received was simply that "we just don't get it".

So, after years of arguing, battling and attempting to reason with Dr. Kiper, it's nice to finally have him come to a website and be bombarded by experts in the field that are finding no validity/credibility in his product, and more importantly it's interesting that he suddenly "doesn't have the time" to answer all these individual questions, since it's too time consuming, but does welcome individual emails.

I guess he simply doesn't want to be exposed publicly, but I guess that's intuitively obvious.

Anyway, thank you Dr. Kirby for finally sealing the deal.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 25th May 2008, 07:34 PM
Kevin Kirby's Avatar
Kevin Kirby Kevin Kirby is offline
Podiatry Arena Veteran
Most Valuable Poster (MVP)
 
About:
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,333
Join Date: Nov 2004
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 380
Thanked 2,061 Times in 1,139 Posts
Default Re: Silicone Dynamic Orthotics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. DSW View Post
Gentleman,

Although I am new to this forum, I am not new to the concept of the SDO or Dr. Kiper's comments. As a matter of fact, I actually engaged him in conversation and Dr. Kiper was kind enough to send me a pair to evaluate for my own recurrent plantar fasciitis.

But first a quick history. I'm a DPM, board certified by the American Board of Podiatric Surgery, with 23 years of practice experience and a relatively open mind. I have a daughter that swims competitively, and as a result, didn't follow the advice I give my own patients and often walked barefoot for prolonged hours around the pools.

This resulted in recurrent bouts of plantar fasciitis. During one of these recurrences, I tried Dr. Kiper's product. I was amazed when I saw this "orthosis", which in MY opinion was no different than the gel inserts that were sold several years ago in the Sunday newspaper sale sections for $9.95. It's a vinyl insert filled with "silicone" and covered by a Spenco like material.

I found some initial transient relief while walking, with considerable discomfort while static. Dr. Kiper claims I did not give the product a fair try, and did not follow his instructions and did not send them back for adjustments, etc. But, since I have a busy practice, I found it much simpler to simply place my old orthoses or even a pair of OTC PowerSteps back in my foot wear and my symptoms were almost immediately alleviated.

Then, Dr. Kiper went on the "attack", and questioned my own skills as a provider, since I could not "cure" my own plantar fasciitis. Despite my constant explanation that the ONLY time my symptoms occurred was when I walked barefoot at my daughter's swim meets, and that my symptoms resolved almost immediately when I resumed an orthoses, he still could not understand that simple concept.

On another website, he constantly attacked the inadequacy of "traditional" orthoses and the benefits of his silicone bag of crap. He constantly quotes laws of physics, Pascal's principle, etc.

Despite NO one subscribing to his theory, NO orthotic lab "buying" his idea, NO podiatric medical school teaching his "theories", NO biomechanical gurus believing or subscribing to his views, he still insists that we all just "don't get it".

I will be the first to admit that my expertise is more surgically/medically oriented than biomechanically oriented, and I will defer the biomechanics to others in my profession. However, I do know enough to understand that Dr. Kiper is way out of his league in attempting to play with the big boys on this site.

So, I'll just sit back and enjoy the show and let the true experts on biomechanics simply pick apart his "theories", but will caution everyone that Dr. Kiper is still waiting for a call from the mother ship to take him back to the planet he left years ago.

Now, I'll just sit back and enjoy. And I'll use my SDO's as coasters for my drinks.
Dr. DSW:

Welcome to Podiatry Arena. Nice comments above.

Do you have a name? Where do you practice?

BTW, I'm still waiting for my mother ship also....
__________________
Sincerely,

Kevin

**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College

E-mail: kevinakirby@comcast.net
Website: www.KirbyPodiatry.com

Private Practice:
107 Scripps Drive, Suite 200
Sacramento, CA 95825 USA
My location

Voice: (916) 925-8111 Fax: (916) 925-8136
**************************************************
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 25th May 2008, 09:44 PM
Kevin Kirby's Avatar
Kevin Kirby Kevin Kirby is offline
Podiatry Arena Veteran
Most Valuable Poster (MVP)
 
About:
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,333
Join Date: Nov 2004
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 380
Thanked 2,061 Times in 1,139 Posts
Default Re: Silicone Dynamic Orthotics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. DSW View Post
Dr. Kirby/Kevin,

You have eloquently and accurately assessed Dr. Kiper's entire method of operation. However, since this forum is unique, and there are actual experts on biomechanics, he has hit a wall regarding trying to spin his mumbo jumbo into some form of convincing "tale".

On other forums, he has an audience without the knowledge of the members of this forum. Therefore, he rants and raves about his product and unfounded theories, while constantly stating that the "old technology" simply does not work.

There are those of us including myself, Jeremy (a Cped), Dr. Wedemeyer, etc., that have constantly challenged his theories and challenged the ethics of treating patients over the internet without an examination, thorough history, etc. We've challenged the ridiculous idea that his "one size fits all" product can heal almost all foot pathology via stepping in a foam box and sending it to him and having him treat you over the internet.

And despite our concerns, the reply we ALWAYS received was simply that "we just don't get it".

So, after years of arguing, battling and attempting to reason with Dr. Kiper, it's nice to finally have him come to a website and be bombarded by experts in the field that are finding no validity/credibility in his product, and more importantly it's interesting that he suddenly "doesn't have the time" to answer all these individual questions, since it's too time consuming, but does welcome individual emails.

I guess he simply doesn't want to be exposed publicly, but I guess that's intuitively obvious.

Anyway, thank you Dr. Kirby for finally sealing the deal.
DSW:

I am just giving Dennis Kiper the same treatment that I have also given Ed Glaser and Brian Rothbart in the past on this website...not agreeing blindly with everything they say and asking them to give scientific evidence that their insole products do all the things that they say they do.

Luckily, I have a number of other colleagues on this site that think like I do so it makes my job much, much easier. Unfortunately, my snake oil sensor (SOS) is very sensitive....and the snake oil practitioners generally tend to get the worst of me when my SOS alarms go off.
__________________
Sincerely,

Kevin

**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College

E-mail: kevinakirby@comcast.net
Website: www.KirbyPodiatry.com

Private Practice:
107 Scripps Drive, Suite 200
Sacramento, CA 95825 USA
My location

Voice: (916) 925-8111 Fax: (916) 925-8136
**************************************************
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 26th May 2008, 05:26 AM
scottneyturbill scottneyturbill is offline
Senior Member
 
About:
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 45
Join Date: Jul 2007
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: Silicone Dynamic Orthotics

[quote=Robertisaacs;38783]I'd say probably somewhere in the middle.

Non est ponenda pluritas sine necessitate.



...and that's a nifty piece of the old Latin, Robert - good to see it!

Peter
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 26th May 2008, 06:48 AM
Dr. DSW Dr. DSW is offline
Senior Member
 
About:
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 56
Join Date: Apr 2008
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts
Default Re: Silicone Dynamic Orthotics

Kevin,

Thanks again for your comments, and yes I do have a not so secret identity.


David S. Wander, DPM, FACFAS
Advanced Foot & Ankle Center
6911 Castor Avenue
Philadelphia, PA 19149
215-725-1092 fax 215-725-1095
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 26th May 2008, 07:20 AM
Kevin Kirby's Avatar
Kevin Kirby Kevin Kirby is offline
Podiatry Arena Veteran
Most Valuable Poster (MVP)
 
About:
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,333
Join Date: Nov 2004
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 380
Thanked 2,061 Times in 1,139 Posts
Default Re: Silicone Dynamic Orthotics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. DSW View Post
Kevin,

Thanks again for your comments, and yes I do have a not so secret identity.


David S. Wander, DPM, FACFAS
Advanced Foot & Ankle Center
6911 Castor Avenue
Philadelphia, PA 19149
215-725-1092 fax 215-725-1095
David:

It will be nice to have you contributing on Podiatry Arena. I understand from what you wrote earlier that your practice is more surgically/medically oriented. Your clinical experience in these matters would greatly add to the diversity on this forum. Steve Arbes, DPM, from Green Bay, Wisconsin, also has been able to contribute many helpful surgical and clinical pearls from his practice experience to Podiatry Arena. We look forward to your future contributions.
__________________
Sincerely,

Kevin

**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College

E-mail: kevinakirby@comcast.net
Website: www.KirbyPodiatry.com

Private Practice:
107 Scripps Drive, Suite 200
Sacramento, CA 95825 USA
My location

Voice: (916) 925-8111 Fax: (916) 925-8136
**************************************************
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 27th May 2008, 01:10 PM
David Wedemeyer's Avatar
David Wedemeyer David Wedemeyer is offline
Podiatry Arena Veteran
 
About:
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Costa Mesa, CA
Posts: 854
Join Date: Apr 2008
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 394
Thanked 155 Times in 106 Posts
Default Re: Silicone Dynamic Orthotics

I asked Dr. Kiper a short while back to explain how his insole would effect positive results with a flexible, compensated forefoot valgus deformity. I would like to give him the opportunity to answer that question here alongside his colleagues and share with us his research that validates using silicone as a base material in an orthosis for this condition.

I noticed that Kevin used a rigid valgus plane deformity to ask a similar question. Since on his website he maintains that his device can be used to mediate almost any pathology I would propose he now answer Kevin's question as to how his insoles would accomplish this.

You cannot just cut and run now Dennis, the biomechanical world is all ears. I would have thought that this was the audience that you were searching for to promote your ideas and product?
__________________
"If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance." - Orville Wright

David G. Wedemeyer, D.C., C.Ped.
Thread Starter
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 27th May 2008, 05:36 PM
Dennis Kiper Dennis Kiper is offline
Senior Member
 
About:
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 135
Join Date: May 2008
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Default Re: Silicone Dynamic Orthotics

It is interesting to me, that when I discussed the value of an F-scan being able to quantify biomechanical efficiency, you pooh poohed it. Yet here you are saying you’d like to get one.

Which is it? Do you see the value of a state of the art technology that can measure biomechanical efficiency or not? The F-scan is being used by probably every if not most every serious biomechanical lab in the world. The mat-scan while not as accurate as the F-scan can also quickly quantify biomechanical efficiency.

The Tekscan rep spent approximately 20 minutes pointing out the results of the pre and post orthotic test done with the silicone dynamic orthotic. We reviewed peak pressure, center of force trajectory, timing, and force distribution. He also pointed out Force vs. Time, Pressure vs. Time, area of contact, and impulse.

The conclusion at the end was that there was a 30% improvement in mechanical efficiency on the RF and 20% efficiency on the L.

The difference between the two orthotics was that there was a discrepancy of 5 Gms of fluid between the L&R (the R had more fluid) and the difference in improvement and efficiency was seen in the values for the measurements above.

It is apparent to me, that the presentation of my ideas and how the fluid technology works is met not only with disbelief, but disdain as well. There is no reason for me to continue this dialogue where I’m beleaguered and belittled by closed minds.

Yours and David Wanders report of your experience with the orthotics I made was based on wearing for a “very” short time without the benefit of consulting with me OR allowing me even one adjustment. Even though I qualified at the very beginning that assessing and adjusting was a part of making this orthotic fit correctly. In addition, part of that fitting process involved transitioning to wearing time, which was also ignored.

Jeremy’s report whether it is factual I don’t know, it certainly is surprising that the patient would come see you and not return his orthotics for a refund. Even if it is true, so what if that case was a failure, it happens to all of us. Because Jeremy refuses to acknowledge who that patient is, there is no way of knowing wheteher I truly failed or the patient failed like Wedermeyer and Wander for failing to follow directions.

The fact is, if anyone cared to set up a time for a demonstration and comparison to patients with established traditional orthotics, Tekscan results would clearly demonstrate the power and viability of the SDO over anything you have to offer with all your measurements, angles and personal evaluations.

A true test over time like any research project could be arranged as well, here too, the results would surprise you.

The fluid technology of the SDO is new although it has been around for 20 years. It doesn’t fit into your Rootian paradigms because you already after 50 years of traditional technology know all there is to know.

PS—A flexible forefoot valgus would be an “excellent” candidate for this orthotic.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 27th May 2008, 06:23 PM
Dr. DSW Dr. DSW is offline
Senior Member
 
About:
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 56
Join Date: Apr 2008
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts
Default Re: Silicone Dynamic Orthotics

As I've stated many times, it's really quite simple. Dr. Kiper is the only one that has figured this out and broken the code, and the rest of us simply "don't get it".

In the interim, I've been providing my patients with traditional "old" technology orthoses for about 23 years, and my patients have been extremely happy and more importantly have experienced relief of their symptoms with this "old" technology that doesn't work. Go figure.......must be a statistical anomaly.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 27th May 2008, 08:00 PM
Kevin Kirby's Avatar
Kevin Kirby Kevin Kirby is offline
Podiatry Arena Veteran
Most Valuable Poster (MVP)
 
About:
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,333
Join Date: Nov 2004
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 380
Thanked 2,061 Times in 1,139 Posts
Default Re: Silicone Dynamic Orthotics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Kiper View Post
The F-scan is being used by probably every if not most every serious biomechanical lab in the world. The mat-scan while not as accurate as the F-scan can also quickly quantify biomechanical efficiency.

The Tekscan rep spent approximately 20 minutes pointing out the results of the pre and post orthotic test done with the silicone dynamic orthotic. We reviewed peak pressure, center of force trajectory, timing, and force distribution. He also pointed out Force vs. Time, Pressure vs. Time, area of contact, and impulse.

The conclusion at the end was that there was a 30% improvement in mechanical efficiency on the RF and 20% efficiency on the L.

Dennis:

First of all, I know for a fact that the F-scan is not being used by every serious biomechanical lab in the world. I believe that the more expensive and more accurate EMED system is quite popular and the newer RSScan system is also used for biomechanics research.

Since I know many of the Tekscan people, could you please tell me which measurement parameter from the F-Scan system the Tekscan representative used to determine that ther was a "30% improvement in mechanical efficiency on the RF and 20% efficiency on the L." I didn't know that an in-shoe pressure measuring system could measure walking speed and oxygen consumption which would be the necessary parameters to be able to measure "mechanical efficiency" of walking. How exactly did he then determine "mechanical efficiency" by only measuring the magnitudes, temporal patterns and distribution of plantar pressures?

By the way, Dennis, I loved all the claims you make on your webpage where you sell your Silicone Dynamic Orthosis (SDO). I especially loved the banner on your webpage:

The Silicone Dynamic Orthotic is the next generation prescription in arch support—

the most accurate made today. Using silicone fluid, it cushions shock from your foot to your low back while absorbing the harmful effects of arch motion (overpronation).



I also liked this nice touch:

WHO BENEFITS FROM THE SILICONE DYNAMIC ORTHOTIC?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Athletes - The SDO is so effective in enhancing performance and preventing injuries that both amateur and professional athletes use the device.

Seniors - Because the SDO takes pressure off the joints, it reduces inflammation and minimizes the effects of degenerative joint arthritis, diabetic ulcers, calluses and other conditions.

Children - As children grow, the feet can already show signs of being out of balance. Parents should be aware of these tell-tale signs of foot problems: Leg cramps, avoidance of sports, postural pain, or walking intolerance. By wearing the SDO at an early age, a lifetime of problems may be averted.

All others - If you are beginning to experience foot pain, don't ignore it. The pain may go away temporarily, but later settle elsewhere in your body. The SDO will allow you to walk without symptoms indefinitely and may prevent surgery in the future.


The testimonials are also very interesting. However, and no real surprise to me, is that you don't include any negative comments about the SDOs in your testimonials section of your website, only glowing positive ones. Since you claim to be scientific and you seem to come on this site wanting us to believe that you are an honest and ethical practitioner, then why don't you also include negative testimonials about your product so that people who visit your testimonials site can understand that SDOs aren't a cure-all as you suggest throughout your website?

In fact, you could start with the negative testimonials from the three to four clinicians on this site who have already used your insole product and noted either instability or a lack of treatment response. I'll be checking in to your website every now and then to see if you are really an honest and ethical practitioner....or, what I expect to be more the case, just another podiatric snake-oil salesman that is using the internet to sell more of his insole products with unsubstantiated, unresearched marketing claims that are intended for only one purpose......to make your wallet fatter.
__________________
Sincerely,

Kevin

**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College

E-mail: kevinakirby@comcast.net
Website: www.KirbyPodiatry.com

Private Practice:
107 Scripps Drive, Suite 200
Sacramento, CA 95825 USA
My location

Voice: (916) 925-8111 Fax: (916) 925-8136
**************************************************
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 28th May 2008, 04:35 AM
Dr. DSW Dr. DSW is offline
Senior Member
 
About:
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 56
Join Date: Apr 2008
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts
Default Re: Silicone Dynamic Orthotics

It's very easy posting on this site, since the answers seem so simple. I particularly like the question of the day:

WHO BENEFITS FROM THE SILICONE DYNAMIC ORTHOTIC?

Answer: Dr. Dennis Kiper



After reading the comments on his website and the amazing claims, I've decided to recommend his product to ALL my patients for ALL podiatric ailments. It makes practice much easier/less complicated.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 28th May 2008, 05:57 AM
David Smith's Avatar
David Smith David Smith is offline
Podiatry Arena Veteran
 
About:
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,777
Join Date: Oct 2004
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 138
Thanked 354 Times in 240 Posts
Default Re: Silicone Dynamic Orthotics

Dennis Kiper Re: Silicone Dynamic Orthotics

Quote:
It is interesting to me, that when I discussed the value of an F-scan being able to quantify biomechanical efficiency, you pooh poohed it. Yet here you are saying you’d like to get one.

Which is it? Do you see the value of a state of the art technology that can measure biomechanical efficiency or not? The F-scan is being used by probably every if not most every serious biomechanical lab in the world. The mat-scan while not as accurate as the F-scan can also quickly quantify biomechanical efficiency.
The multi cell matrix pressure mat or pressure insole measures discrete vertical applied force. IE that part of the total force which is applied perpendicular to the force cell. It also logs the temporal and spatial displacements of the applied force inter and intra cell.
The software then analyses these parameters and presents it in a form that characterises the data in such a way that it is intuitively readable by the clinician.
The way the clinician interprets this characterisation in terms of the subject studied is entirely down to themselves. This interpretation is in fact a theory, this theory can then be tested, either by deducing a conclusion by comparing to known data and/or by doing other experimental tests. The soft ware may have the capability to make some interpretation of data also but it definentely does not measure biomechanical efficiency of gait.

Quote:
The Tekscan rep spent approximately 20 minutes pointing out the results of the pre and post orthotic test done with the silicone dynamic orthotic. We reviewed peak pressure, center of force trajectory, timing, and force distribution. He also pointed out Force vs. Time, Pressure vs. Time, area of contact, and impulse.
What! 20 minutes -- without a teabreak, incredible. I never known research data evaluation take so long. You both must have been exhausted.

Quote:
The conclusion at the end was that there was a 30% improvement in mechanical efficiency on the RF and 20% efficiency on the L.
Did you come to that conclusion after correlating the F Scan data with 3D motion analysis and force plate data like is being done by probably every if not most every serious biomechanical lab in the world.

Quote:
The difference between the two orthotics was that there was a discrepancy of 5 Gms of fluid between the L&R (the R had more fluid) and the difference in improvement and efficiency was seen in the values for the measurements above.
Are you saying that Correlation = causation? are you sure about that were there no other confounding variables to take into consideration?

Quote:
It is apparent to me, that the presentation of my ideas and how the fluid technology works is met not only with disbelief, but disdain as well. There is no reason for me to continue this dialogue where I’m beleaguered and belittled by closed minds.
All you need to be taken seriously is a sensible argument with some valid theories and just a smidgen of evidence to back them up. Your theories are fanciful and your evidence non existent. Have you ever studied the theory and practice of the scientific method or of inductive or deductive reasoning and logic (sorry all, now I'm just showing off cause I read a new book )

Quote:
Yours and David Wanders report of your experience with the orthotics I made was based on wearing for a “very” short time without the benefit of consulting with me OR allowing me even one adjustment. Even though I qualified at the very beginning that assessing and adjusting was a part of making this orthotic fit correctly. In addition, part of that fitting process involved transitioning to wearing time, which was also ignored.
Oh yes time Hmm! acccording to your own web info resolution may take months or even years. During which time there may need to be several adjustment and usually two or three replacements of the orthoses because the foot "ABSORBS the ORTHOTIC". So is it filled with Oil of Ulay Does it reduce wrinkles and make the feet look 10 years younger OOH does it have Pentpeptides theyre hot in the beauty scene --- apparently
Hardly suprising that some with a modicom of common sense lose interest.


Quote:
The fact is, if anyone cared to set up a time for a demonstration and comparison to patients with established traditional orthotics, Tekscan results would clearly demonstrate the power and viability of the SDO over anything you have to offer with all your measurements, angles and personal evaluations.
Dr Kiper, would you like me to explain how your interpretation of the Tekscan results is just Bollocks or would you prefer not to look even more rediculous than you do now.

Quote:
A true test over time like any research project could be arranged as well, here too, the results would surprise you.
A true test - Outline your research project - theory, premise, methodology. Or just a reasonabl;e explanation based on mechanical principles. (Do not just repeat -fluid dynamics - it move from the area of highest pressure to least pressure and greatest need) I really don't think you would know a well structured research project if it hit you in the face like a -- well a wet kipper

All the best Dave
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 31st May 2008, 05:29 AM
Jeremy Long Jeremy Long is offline
Senior Member
 
About:
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Asheville, NC
Posts: 79
Join Date: Sep 2007
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 8
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Default Re: Silicone Dynamic Orthotics

"Jeremy’s report whether it is factual I don’t know, it certainly is surprising that the patient would come see you and not return his orthotics for a refund. Even if it is true, so what if that case was a failure, it happens to all of us. Because Jeremy refuses to acknowledge who that patient is, there is no way of knowing wheteher I truly failed or the patient failed like Wedermeyer and Wander for failing to follow directions."

Dr. Kiper, are you somehow attempting to question my professional integrity? I can assure you and any other reader on this board that any comments I make in this regard are completely factual, based on personal evaluation and observation. It's more than a bit distressing that you would feel the need to question that, particularly since there are others here who are particularly aware of my history and clinical skill and professionalism.

And speaking of professionalism, I would certainly never divulge a patient's name (or other personal details) on a forum such as this. You have had my personal contact info for quite some time, and thus have the means to seek those answers at your leisure. Just so you and other readers here know, this individual patient made every attempt at relief through your devices and instruction. It was only after several months of unresponsive treatment that this person sought my direct care. I feel very strongly that any comment reflecting that the patient failed you is absurd in this specific case.

Just so you don't get fooled into believing this was an isolated case, I have directly treated four individuals who have all made failed attempts through the use of your SDO product. I chose to bring forth details in this most recent case because it dealt with a biomechanical profile which I view the SDO as lacking treatment efficacy. This is a view I both provided openly in forums such as this and to you personally. It is my sincere hope that you begin to recognize the deficiencies existing both in your patient evaluations and in the product itself, and have the ethics to tell certain patient populations that they may find superior care away from your devices.
__________________
Jeremy Long C Ped
Smoky Mountain Foot Clinic
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 2nd June 2008, 01:00 PM
David Wedemeyer's Avatar
David Wedemeyer David Wedemeyer is offline
Podiatry Arena Veteran
 
About:
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Costa Mesa, CA
Posts: 854
Join Date: Apr 2008
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 394
Thanked 155 Times in 106 Posts
Default Re: Silicone Dynamic Orthotics

Dennis you really need to face facts and reality here. The repeated threads both here, on the previous website and on your own where you denigrate the “old technology” and favor your (or was it Dr. Krinskys?) silicone insert are inaccurate and unfounded. You have zero research behind this product, zero clinical trials and zero peer-reviewed studies supporting your claims and you are rapidly losing your credibility amongst your peers making these assertions.

To continue to deflect the biomechanical questions posed and instead engage us about our failure to follow your instructions is the same banal, tired rhetoric and deflection of the pertinent issues that we have exhaustively met with when dealing with you. Dr. Smith pointed out the fact that we were exercising our common sense, as reasonable and educated people do. Dr. Wander and I repeatedly told you that we simply do not have months or years to have you email us daily about how the insert feels, mail the inserts to and fro and hope that one day our feet will accommodate to the fluid technology. We live and practice in the real world where patients expect outcomes and reasonable resolution of their symptoms.

I propose that the reason that you utilize this system is that very few patients have the time or inclination to see this all the way through with habitual email, fluid volume changes and email office visits and simply give up. I wonder how many patients have actually been afforded a refund at the time that they ask and how many just acquiesce to your flurry of email, questions and modifications over lengths of time.

I told you that I did not understand all of the data that an F-Scan provides nor how it is determined. Yes I do believe that pressure pad analysis as I understand it can help clinically to determine if certain goals are being met with orthoses. What is your point in calling me out on this? Grab at a more intelligent straw and direct your criticisms to the more accomplished biomechanical minds here addressing you since that was the purpose of you coming here in the first place wasn’t it? Or was it just to initiate another round of arguing over how “we just don’t get it?

Since you consider yourself such an expert at F-Scan analysis (and given the fact that you do not perform these scans on your patients and practice by mail and email) try and explain to Drs. Kirby and Smith how you arrive at the claims that you have made in establishing improved biomechanical efficiency shown on F-Scan. I will sit back and read this train wreck with rapt interest.

I am aware of several patients from the other site who would qualify your device as a complete failure so your acrimonious rancor that traditional orthoses are rife with failure is not validated by the reputed overwhelming superiority of the SDO. We all have successes and failures and as Dr. Kirby pointed out not revealing such when you make such grandiose and unverifiable claims to your patients (sic) renders your integrity suspect.

The fact that Jeremy will not reveal the identity of the patients that he has seen wearing your device and who was not satisfied is to his benefit. He observes ethical practices and HIPPA laws and you seen to want to ignore them. Divulging patient information is not an ethical practice befitting your education and license. For that matter neither is practicing podiatric medicine via the mail and internet.

I am surprised that you have not brought up the “clinical trial” that you conducted on three (3) patients on that other website. I’m afraid to view you alluding here to this crowning professional moment of yours that you regurgitate so effluently. I can imagine the responses from the posters here who actually do conduct clinically valid trials that are designed within the accepted standards and I believe that they too will overwhelmingly find your mention of this professionally reprobate.

Face facts; it is time for you to rethink why so many professionals are resistant to your materials, methods and ideas, not the other way around. Answer the questions posed by the experts and refrain from continuing this personal diatribe of yours. Maybe if you conduct appropriate clinical research trials and publish your results you will gain a modicum of respectability. Until then your entire professional model consists of opinions not based in fact and unsubstantiated marketing. Period.

One last thing Dennis, my last name is spelled Wedemeyer not Wedermeyer. There is one r, it is on the end and I know that you already know this. I don’t type ‘Kipper’ instead of Kiper or Denise instead of Dennis now do I?
__________________
"If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance." - Orville Wright

David G. Wedemeyer, D.C., C.Ped.
Thread Starter
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Translate This Page

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Foot silicone injections javier General Issues and Discussion Forum 33 13th May 2011 01:33 PM
Injectable Silicone toemeister USA 4 3rd November 2010 11:01 AM
Dynamic gait stability index based on plantar pressures and fuzzy logic NewsBot Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses 0 9th April 2008 01:50 PM
Silicone insoles for flexible flatfoot NewsBot Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses 0 10th October 2007 01:29 PM
Static and dynamic ankle ROM and stiffness in DM Hylton Menz Diabetic Foot & Wound Management 0 15th November 2005 07:53 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

Finding your way around:

Browse the forums.

Search the site.

Browse the tags.

Search the tags.


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:35 PM.