Home Forums Marketplace Table of Contents Events Member List Site Map Register Mark Forums Read



Welcome to the Podiatry Arena forums, for communication between foot health professionals about podiatry and related topics.

You are currently viewing our podiatry forum as a guest which gives you limited access to view all podiatry discussions and access our other features. By joining our free global community of Podiatrists and other interested foot health care professionals you will have access to post podiatry topics (answer and ask questions), communicate privately with other members (PM), upload content, view attachments, receive a weekly email update of new discussions, earn CPD points and access many other special features. Registered users do not get displayed the advertisments in posted messages. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our global Podiatry community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.


Tags:

Evolution of the great toe?

Reply
Submit Thread >  Submit to Digg Submit to Reddit Submit to Furl Submit to Del.icio.us Submit to Google Submit to Yahoo! This Submit to Technorati Submit to StumbleUpon Submit to Spurl Submit to Netscape  < Submit Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 15th January 2009, 01:21 PM
sparkyclair sparkyclair is offline
Member
 
About:
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 25
Join Date: Dec 2007
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Evolution of the great toe?

Podiatry Arena members do not see these ads
Hi all
Not sure if there has been a question like this in the past, but I am interested in why the great toe joint seems to cause so many problems, particularly in later life, i.e. hallux limitus, rigidus, HAV etc etc. From an historical perspective, when our life spans were only 30 years or so I guess we would never had seen such conditions, but does the fact that now we are living much longer mean that the MTPJ isn't up for the job? Is this an evolutionary issue? Just curious to hear anyone elses thoughts on this.
cheers
SC.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 15th January 2009, 02:22 PM
Simon Spooner's Avatar
Simon Spooner Simon Spooner is offline
Podiatry Arena Veteran
 
About:
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: "I'm sick of flags - whatever colour. There's only one flag - the white flag.": Paul Hewson
Posts: 2,062
Join Date: Aug 2005
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 12
Thanked 131 Times in 108 Posts
Default Re: Evolution of the great toe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkyclair View Post
Hi all
Not sure if there has been a question like this in the past, but I am interested in why the great toe joint seems to cause so many problems, particularly in later life, i.e. hallux limitus, rigidus, HAV etc etc. From an historical perspective, when our life spans were only 30 years or so I guess we would never had seen such conditions, but does the fact that now we are living much longer mean that the MTPJ isn't up for the job? Is this an evolutionary issue? Just curious to hear anyone elses thoughts on this.
cheers
SC.
The onset of hallux valgus varies. It may be congenital. It may manifest during adolescence or, later in adult life. Congenital hallux valgus is rare. However, a few isolated cases of the condition are reported (Thul, Stone and Gilarski 1985). Mahan and Jacko (1991) suggest that juvenile hallux valgus most commonly presents between the ages of 11 and 14 years, but provide little evidence to substantiate this conjecture.

Greenberg et al. (1963) in a study of 1,878 school children noted a prevalence of hallux valgus in the order of 6%. Sabbam (1965) reported a prevalence of bunions of 1.75% in a survey of 1,370 children under 15 years. In a survey of joint mobility and foot problems of 191 Australian children, Marr and D'Abrera (1985) noted a prevalence of hallux valgus of 11.8% in females, compared to only 3.5% in males. Kilmartin and Wallace (1990) reported a prevalence of 2.3% of 6,400 nine-year-old school children.

Adult and geriatric foot surveys have suggested a higher prevalence of hallux valgus: Merrill, Frankson and Tarara (1967) noted a prevalence of approx. 24% in their study of 1,011 nursing home patients of 60 years old and more. Schnitzer and Hoeffler (1974), in a study of 14,470 male American Navy recruits, reported a prevalence of 19.4%. Brodie et al. (1988) reported that hallux valgus was almost three times as prevalent in females as in males until the age of 64 years, when the prevalence between genders converged. However, this gap again widened at 75 years and older.

All of the above taken from: Spooner S.K.: Predictors of Hallux Valgus: A study of heritability. PhD Thesis, University of Leicester.

Hope this helps.
__________________
Science is the antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition

My location
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 20th January 2009, 02:28 PM
SoulShine SoulShine is offline
Member
 
About:
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 6
Join Date: May 2007
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Smile Re: Evolution of the great toe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkyclair View Post
Hi all
Not sure if there has been a question like this in the past, but I am interested in why the great toe joint seems to cause so many problems, particularly in later life, i.e. hallux limitus, rigidus, HAV etc etc. From an historical perspective, when our life spans were only 30 years or so I guess we would never had seen such conditions, but does the fact that now we are living much longer mean that the MTPJ isn't up for the job? Is this an evolutionary issue? Just curious to hear anyone elses thoughts on this.
cheers
SC.
An interesting question! I would suggest the evolution from barefoot to shoes has something more to do with it; as well as the evolution from walking to driving; the evolution of getting fat; the evolution of cheap fashion footwear.
Now people are living much much longer what is the condition of MTPJ in populations unaffected by above mentioned evolutions? There must be a small tribe of them somewhere.....
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 20th January 2009, 06:08 PM
LuckyLisfranc's Avatar
LuckyLisfranc LuckyLisfranc is offline
Podiatry Arena Veteran
 
About:
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
Posts: 613
Join Date: Jan 2005
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 2
Thanked 115 Times in 86 Posts
Default Re: Evolution of the great toe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkyclair View Post
Hi all
Not sure if there has been a question like this in the past, but I am interested in why the great toe joint seems to cause so many problems, particularly in later life, i.e. hallux limitus, rigidus, HAV etc etc. From an historical perspective, when our life spans were only 30 years or so I guess we would never had seen such conditions, but does the fact that now we are living much longer mean that the MTPJ isn't up for the job? Is this an evolutionary issue? Just curious to hear anyone elses thoughts on this.
cheers
SC.
Here's something interesting to consider.

Take a look at an x-ray or skeletal model of the metatarsals and phalanges.

What is the difference between the 1st metatarsal and great toes, and the lesser metatarsals and toes?

The most obvious is the "lack" of a "middle" phalanx. Look more closely though at the shapes of the metatarsals and phalanges in all three planes.

What you soon discover is that the 1st metatarsal shares all the anatomical attributes of a proximal phalanx, and none of the attributes of the lesser metatarsals (physical shape, proportions etc). And the ratio of sizes of the distal,middle and proximal pahalges of the lesser toes are proportional to the ratio of the sizes of the distal phalanx, proximal phalanx and 1st metatarsal.

So the question is: why is the first metatarsal really just an oversized proximal phalanx?

LL
__________________
*****************************************
Remember, it's just a foot.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 21st January 2009, 08:20 AM
drsarbes's Avatar
drsarbes drsarbes is offline
Podiatry Arena Veteran
 
About:
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 797
Join Date: Sep 2005
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 65 Times in 58 Posts
Default Re: Evolution of the great toe?

Hi Sparky:

good question.

Looking at it from a different perspective.....is the 1st MTPJ any more prone to pathology than, say, the knee or hip or heart or lungs?

I think the life span of the human race has arrived to a point where we outlive our "parts."

Steve
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 21st January 2009, 11:38 AM
W J Liggins W J Liggins is offline
Podiatry Arena Veteran
 
About:
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Warwickshire
Posts: 332
Join Date: Oct 2004
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 1
Thanked 18 Times in 17 Posts
Default Re: Evolution of the great toe?

Good points all. We also have to account for differences in shod/unshod populations and geographical distribution.  However, David H's favourite theory must surely have a bearing - in the Western world we walk on artificially hard, flat surfaces. Appreciate your morphology point LL.  Additionally, the ossification of the epiphysis of the 1st met. takes place at the base (like a phalanx), whilst that of the lesser mets. is at the anatomical neck.

In the final analysis, I am sure that SS & KK would point out that in addition to the above, the complexity of the sesamoid apparatus and the very complicated moments about the joint during ambulation are involved.

All the best

Bill Liggins
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 21st January 2009, 11:23 PM
Frederick George Frederick George is offline
Senior Member
 
About:
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posts: 51
Join Date: Mar 2008
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default Re: Evolution of the great toe?

If you want to see something cool along this line, look at the Vadoma tribe in [western Zimbabwe. A nurse here in the clinic (from Zimbabwe) told me about them. Her grandfather, as medical officer did some of the first research on them.

IMG]http://http://darkcreek.com/vadoma_ectrodactyly[/IMG]

They are in a remote area, away from roads. They are known for their running and tree climbing ability.

Quite a sturdy looking first ray, huh? No hypermobility issues in these feet!

Cheers

Frederick
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 22nd January 2009, 10:13 AM
drsarbes's Avatar
drsarbes drsarbes is offline
Podiatry Arena Veteran
 
About:
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 797
Join Date: Sep 2005
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 65 Times in 58 Posts
Default Re: Evolution of the great toe?

Hi Fred:

Watched the video.........wow.

When I was in my residency we had a patient with Lobster Claw Deformity. I haven't seen one since. Apparently it's an autosomal dominant trait.

Thanks

Steve
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 22nd January 2009, 10:29 AM
Graham Graham is offline
Podiatry Arena Veteran
 
About:
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 213
Join Date: Sep 2008
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 6
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Default Re: Evolution of the great toe?

Hard, flat/level surfaces.

Cave men didn't have concrete. The first MTPJ is unable to plantar flex at the appropriate time and the hallux can not extend over the met head during propulsion. This repeated millions of times a decade = pathology.

Different stroke for different folks - individual tissue stress variables = variable pathologiesbetween individuals.

regards
__________________
Graham Curryer

None of us know what we are doing, but some of us know more about what we are not doing than others!::
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Translate This Page

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Evolution Atlas Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses 62 18th November 2009 08:13 PM
Evolution of human running NewsBot Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses 6 17th February 2009 12:34 PM
What a great site martinharvey Introductions 11 25th January 2009 11:24 PM
Another 'great man' moves on Craig Payne Break Room 4 11th January 2008 05:35 AM
Evolution of Orthotics mandy236 Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses 9 11th October 2006 01:59 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

Finding your way around:

Browse the forums.

Search the site.

Browse the tags.

Search the tags.


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:20 PM.