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Would you please explain how physics is applied to self adjusting biological systems?
Physics is: 'The sciences that treat of inanimate matter and of energy,
apart from vitality.'
Hi Kate,
Gladly. I assume by self adjusting you are talking about the body at a physiological level in terms of hormones, etc. and the achievement of homeostasis. Physics can be used to describe the motions of the skeletal system. If you accept Newton's laws as valid then any motion of any living body can be described using physics. Newton's 2nd law says it all. For linear motion the acceleration of the body is equal the force applied divided by the mass. (F = ma, a F/m) For angular acceleration the net moment is equal to moment of inertia x angular acceleration. So, any time you see a body part start to rotate relative to another part, there must have been a moment applied. Living things still have to obey the laws of physics.
Kate I think there is a place for physics in musculo-skeletal medicine, although I do think it is over-complicated.
You can get a long way understanding compressive and tensile stress for instance. An acute ankle ligament sprain for example would not appreciate (at a macro or micro level) continued tensile stress.
Mr Spooner some people would say this is a 'blunderbuss' approach to medicine.
Ref: 'In terms of theories...' surely it's better to use only the correct colours instead of all of them?
The 'blunderbuss' approach often characterises academics with an impaired understanding of their discipline.
Actually, Kate, I believe that Dr. Spooner has an enhanced understanding of his discipline. He is one of the few PhDs contributing to this forum, has both taught in Podiatry Schools and contributed to the podiatric literature with original research and, as far as I'm concerned, has a better understanding of foot and lower extremity biomechanics than 99% of the podiatrists around the world. He is one of the leaders of our profession in podiatric biomechanics.
Contrary to your opinion that Dr. Spooner uses a "blunderbuss approach", I believe that he is quite specific and selective in his criticisms of certain ideas and individuals that don't make good sense to him and that don't follow accepted laws of physics. Personally, I believe his comments add great value to this forum and I know they are enjoyed by many of the lurkers and contributors on Podiatry Arena. Please tell us your background in podiatry or in academia in general, Kate, that you have the right to judge that Dr. Spooner has "an impaired understanding of his discipline."
__________________
Sincerely,
Kevin
**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College
I'm concerned, has a better understanding of foot and lower extremity biomechanics than 99% of the podiatrists around the world. He is one of the leaders of our profession in podiatric biomechanics.
Excuse me if I am wrong, but do you know personally all podiatrists around the globe? Have you evaluated biophysics knowledge from all podiatrists around the globe for making this statement?
It is second time I read this statement, and it is a unrespectful way to address peers if you can not offer any real data if it is true or not.
I have enjoyed both Dr. Spooner and your contributions on Podiatry Jiscmail and on this forum; but lately comments are offensive not only towards some individuals, they are also towards colleagues that we have not had the opportunity to research and publish.
Excuse me if I am wrong, but do you know personally all podiatrists around the globe? Have you evaluated biophysics knowledge from all podiatrists around the globe for making this statement?
It is second time I read this statement, and it is a unrespectful way to address peers if you can not offer any real data if it is true or not.
I have enjoyed both Dr. Spooner and your contributions on Podiatry Jiscmail and on this forum; but lately comments are offensive not only towards some individuals, they are also towards colleagues that we have not had the opportunity to research and publish.
Javier:
99% may be an unfair estimate. It is probably more like 99.67% (OK, I'll admit it is only a guess :p) from my discussions and lectures to podiatrists in 7 countries, my lectures at podiatric biomechanics seminars in these countries for the past 21 years and my review of the last 40 years of podiatric biomechanics literature. What would your estimate of Dr. Spooner's knowledge be, Javier? How many times have you been invited to lecture out of Spain on podiatric biomechanics? And why have you not had the opportunity to research and publish? What is preventing you from doing so? I would say that I am respectful to all those that show respect to others and don't try to use this forum to promote their own self-serving ideas and don't criticize respected members of the podiatry community for purposes that have nothing to do with academic disagreements.
However, Javier, I am sorry if I offended you. Good luck with your upcoming research and publication of that research.
__________________
Sincerely,
Kevin
**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College
Javier:
99% may be an unfair estimate. It is probably more like 99.67% (OK, I'll admit it is only a guess :p) from my discussions and lectures to podiatrists in 7 countries, my lectures at podiatric biomechanics seminars in these countries for the past 21 years and my review of the last 40 years of podiatric biomechanics literature.
There is a world of difference between guessing and evidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Kirby
What would your estimate of Dr. Spooner's knowledge be, Javier?
I think it is clear that Dr. Sponner have shown an encyclopedic knowledge about the subject.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Kirby
How many times have you been invited to lecture out of Spain on podiatric biomechanics?
None. I have invited to lecture about diabetic foot orthotic management. I know it is not rocket science but it helps people to keep their lower extremities for having muskuloeskeletal injuries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Kirby
And why have you not had the opportunity to research and publish? What is preventing you from doing so?
Because I have been working for years for achieving a successful practice by my own. I hope in next years I will be able to perform some research from my own pocket (no funds are available for podiatrists in Spain).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Kirby
I would say that I am respectful to all those that show respect to others and don't try to use this forum to promote their own self-serving ideas and don't criticize respected members of the podiatry community for purposes that have nothing to do with academic disagreements.
Nonsense is not worth to be discussed, but neither criticism can be considered as personal attacks.
Mr Kirby, isn't the whole purpose of this arena for full & frank discussion in order
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Kirby
Actually, Kate, I believe that Dr. Spooner has an enhanced understanding of his discipline. He is one of the few PhDs contributing to this forum, has both taught in Podiatry Schools and contributed to the podiatric literature with original research and, as far as I'm concerned, has a better understanding of foot and lower extremity biomechanics than 99% of the podiatrists around the world. He is one of the leaders of our profession in podiatric biomechanics.
Contrary to your opinion that Dr. Spooner uses a "blunderbuss approach", I believe that he is quite specific and selective in his criticisms of certain ideas and individuals that don't make good sense to him and that don't follow accepted laws of physics. Personally, I believe his comments add great value to this forum and I know they are enjoyed by many of the lurkers and contributors on Podiatry Arena. Please tell us your background in podiatry or in academia in general, Kate, that you have the right to judge that Dr. Spooner has "an impaired understanding of his discipline."
to arrive at scientific accuracy, and not the academic history of contributors?
Are we not allowed differing opinions in this forum?
Mr Spooner seems to be of the opinion that the laws of physics may be applied to biomechanics.
Once again I contend that anyone who doesn't accept that the science of physics applies only to inanimate matter (see the Oxford English Dictionary definition) has the most basic misunderstanding of his own scientific discipline.
If you disagree with this definition, please tell me on what grounds.
Physics does not enunciate mathematical laws applicable to the clinical practise of medicine, since it deals exclusively with inanimate matter & energy, excluding vitality. (please refer to the OED definition)
I await Mr Spooner's defense of his contribution concerning physics & biomechanics.
Ron, thank you for your reply but I must disagree, the stresses & strains of living
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlas
Kate I think there is a place for physics in musculo-skeletal medicine, although I do think it is over-complicated.
You can get a long way understanding compressive and tensile stress for instance. An acute ankle ligament sprain for example would not appreciate (at a macro or micro level) continued tensile stress.
Ron
tissue are biological concepts and therefore the science of physics once again is not applicable. (Oxford English Dictionary definition) Physics: "The sciences that treat of inanimate matter and of energy, apart from vitality."
Hi Eric, thank you for your reply, I was talking about the body as a whole.
Quote:
Originally Posted by efuller
Hi Kate,
Gladly. I assume by self adjusting you are talking about the body at a physiological level in terms of hormones, etc. and the achievement of homeostasis. Physics can be used to describe the motions of the skeletal system. If you accept Newton's laws as valid then any motion of any living body can be described using physics. Newton's 2nd law says it all. For linear motion the acceleration of the body is equal the force applied divided by the mass. (F = ma, a F/m) For angular acceleration the net moment is equal to moment of inertia x angular acceleration. So, any time you see a body part start to rotate relative to another part, there must have been a moment applied. Living things still have to obey the laws of physics.
Regards,
Eric Fuller
Physics can be used to describe the motions of the skeletal system only in a dead body.
When Newton was referring to 'the body' he meant 'the inanimate body' eg: a bullet, since physics deals exclusively with inanimate matter & energy, excluding vitality.
The study of biomechanics relates to biology not physics.
I was pointing out to Mr Spooner, that he appears not to understand that physics is not a biological science, & therefore cannot be applied to biomechanics which certainly is a biological science.
tissue are biological concepts and therefore the science of physics once again is not applicable. (Oxford English Dictionary definition) Physics: "The sciences that treat of inanimate matter and of energy, apart from vitality."
This is because there is a discipline called Biophysics or biological physics. Just type biophysics on Google, you will find plenty of references. Also it is on the Oxford Dictionaty Online http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/biophysics?view=uk
Physics does not describe anything vital ie: living. It deals purely with non vital matter & energy.
Biomechanics is the research and analysis of the mechanics of living organisms. Aristoteles might be considered the first biomechanicist. He wrote the first book called "De Motu Animalium" - On the Movement of Animals. He not only saw animals' bodies as mechanical systems, but pursued such questions as the physiological difference between imagining performing an action and actually doing it. The research and analysis can be carried forth on multiple levels, from the molecular, wherein molecular biomaterials such as collagen and elastin are considered, to the macroscopic level, all the way up to the tissue and organ level. Some simple applications of Newtonian Mechanics can supply correct approximations on each level, but precise details demand the use of Continuum Mechanics.
Some simple examples of biomechanics research include the investigation of the forces that act on limbs, the aerodynamics of bird and insect flight, the hydrodynamics of swimming in fish and locomotion in general across all forms of life, from individual cells to whole organisms. The biomechanics of human beings is a core part of kinesiology.
Applied mechanics, most notably thermodynamics and continuum mechanics and mechanical engineering disciplines such as fluid mechanics and solid mechanics, play prominent roles in the study of biomechanics. By applying the laws and concepts of physics, biomechanical mechanisms and structures can be simulated and studied.
Biomechanics of the bones
Bones are anisotropic but are approximately transversely isotropic. In other words, bones are stronger along one axis than across that axis, and are approximately the same strength no matter how they are rotated around that axis.
The stress-strain relations of bones can be modeled using Hooke's Law, in which they are related by linear constants known as the Young's modulus or the elastic modulus, and the shear modulus and poission ratio, collectively known as the Lamé constants. The constitutive matrix, a fourth order tensor, depends on the isotropy of the bone.
In physics, Hooke's law of elasticity is an approximation which states that the amount by which a material body is deformed (the strain) is linearly related to the force causing the deformation (the stress). Materials for which Hooke's law is a useful approximation are known as linear-elastic or "Hookean" materials.
For systems that obey Hooke's law, the extension produced is proportional to the load. The most commonly encountered form of Hooke's law is probably the spring equation, which relates the force exerted by a spring to the distance it is stretched by a spring constant, k, measured in force per length.
F= -kx
where
x is the distance the spring is elongated by,
F is the restoring force exerted by the spring, and
k is the spring constant or force constant of the spring.
When this holds, we say that the spring is a linear spring. The negative sign indicates that the force exerted by the spring is in direct opposition to the direction of displacement. It is called a "restoring force", as it tends to restore the system to equilibrium
Hooke's law mathematically comes from the fact that in most solids (and in most isolated molecules) atoms are in the state of stable equilibrium.
References
A.C. Ugural, S.K. Fenster, Advanced Strength and Applied Elasticity, 4th ed
Fung, Y.C. "Biomechanics: Mechanical Properties of Living Tissue" (2nd ed.). New York: Springer.
Humphrey, Jay D. "Cardiovascular Solid Mechanics: Cells, Tissues, and Organs." New York: Springer.
Vogel, Steven. (2003). Comparative Biomechanics: Life's Physical World. Princeton: Princeton University Press.
Hi Javier, thank you for your reply, I imagine that Biophysics is a more recent
Quote:
Originally Posted by javier
This is because there is a discipline called Biophysics or biological physics. Just type biophysics on Google, you will find plenty of references. Also it is on the Oxford Dictionaty Online http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/biophysics?view=uk
concept than physics.
Mr Spooner could be more specific with his wording.
After all medicine is a very specific science.
Mark, thank you for yor reply, I don't recall challenging the definition of
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Russell
Biomechanics is the research and analysis of the mechanics of living organisms. Aristoteles might be considered the first biomechanicist. He wrote the first book called "De Motu Animalium" - On the Movement of Animals. He not only saw animals' bodies as mechanical systems, but pursued such questions as the physiological difference between imagining performing an action and actually doing it. The research and analysis can be carried forth on multiple levels, from the molecular, wherein molecular biomaterials such as collagen and elastin are considered, to the macroscopic level, all the way up to the tissue and organ level. Some simple applications of Newtonian Mechanics can supply correct approximations on each level, but precise details demand the use of Continuum Mechanics.
Some simple examples of biomechanics research include the investigation of the forces that act on limbs, the aerodynamics of bird and insect flight, the hydrodynamics of swimming in fish and locomotion in general across all forms of life, from individual cells to whole organisms. The biomechanics of human beings is a core part of kinesiology.
Applied mechanics, most notably thermodynamics and continuum mechanics and mechanical engineering disciplines such as fluid mechanics and solid mechanics, play prominent roles in the study of biomechanics. By applying the laws and concepts of physics, biomechanical mechanisms and structures can be simulated and studied.
Biomechanics of the bones
Bones are anisotropic but are approximately transversely isotropic. In other words, bones are stronger along one axis than across that axis, and are approximately the same strength no matter how they are rotated around that axis.
The stress-strain relations of bones can be modeled using Hooke's Law, in which they are related by linear constants known as the Young's modulus or the elastic modulus, and the shear modulus and poission ratio, collectively known as the Lamé constants. The constitutive matrix, a fourth order tensor, depends on the isotropy of the bone.
In physics, Hooke's law of elasticity is an approximation which states that the amount by which a material body is deformed (the strain) is linearly related to the force causing the deformation (the stress). Materials for which Hooke's law is a useful approximation are known as linear-elastic or "Hookean" materials.
For systems that obey Hooke's law, the extension produced is proportional to the load. The most commonly encountered form of Hooke's law is probably the spring equation, which relates the force exerted by a spring to the distance it is stretched by a spring constant, k, measured in force per length.
F= -kx
where
x is the distance the spring is elongated by,
F is the restoring force exerted by the spring, and
k is the spring constant or force constant of the spring.
When this holds, we say that the spring is a linear spring. The negative sign indicates that the force exerted by the spring is in direct opposition to the direction of displacement. It is called a "restoring force", as it tends to restore the system to equilibrium
Hooke's law mathematically comes from the fact that in most solids (and in most isolated molecules) atoms are in the state of stable equilibrium.
References
A.C. Ugural, S.K. Fenster, Advanced Strength and Applied Elasticity, 4th ed
Fung, Y.C. "Biomechanics: Mechanical Properties of Living Tissue" (2nd ed.). New York: Springer.
Humphrey, Jay D. "Cardiovascular Solid Mechanics: Cells, Tissues, and Organs." New York: Springer.
Vogel, Steven. (2003). Comparative Biomechanics: Life's Physical World. Princeton: Princeton University Press.
biomechanics.
I was merely pointing out that Mr Spooner is no expert in physics..(his wording in responses.. not mine)
“An expert is someone who has succeeded in making decisions and judgements simpler through knowing what to pay attention to and what to ignore.”
Francis Charles Publius (b/1933)
As for your remark about the Oxford English Dictionary being 'terribly unreliable', which dictionary do you suggest to clarify the definition of physics?
Kate,
I am really intrigued by your thoughts.
Do you feel that the application of physics to a living organism does not stand, as we are not applying the laws of physics to a passive, non-reactive body??
Tony
Tony hi, absolutely I do! you cannot apply the law of
Quote:
Originally Posted by achilles
Kate,
I am really intrigued by your thoughts.
Do you feel that the application of physics to a living organism does not stand, as we are not applying the laws of physics to a passive, non-reactive body??
Tony
physics to a living organism, as was my original observation.
Mr Spooner, (& now it seems others) are challenging the definition of pure physics.
Had they described biophysics I would not have entered this debate!!
As I have stated, medicine is a specific science & as such, so called experts should surely use specific terms.
I have no 'bug bear' with anyone, I just like people to say what they mean.
If we do not use the English language accurately, how can we hope to be scientifically accurate?
to arrive at scientific accuracy, and not the academic history of contributors?
Are we not allowed differing opinions in this forum?
Mr Spooner seems to be of the opinion that the laws of physics may be applied to biomechanics.
Once again I contend that anyone who doesn't accept that the science of physics applies only to inanimate matter (see the Oxford English Dictionary definition) has the most basic misunderstanding of his own scientific discipline.
If you disagree with this definition, please tell me on what grounds.
Physics does not enunciate mathematical laws applicable to the clinical practise of medicine, since it deals exclusively with inanimate matter & energy, excluding vitality. (please refer to the OED definition)
I await Mr Spooner's defense of his contribution concerning physics & biomechanics.
Kate Wabel
Kate,
Do you have something personal against Dr. Spooner? It sure seems so from reading your many postings where you are focusing only on him and what he said some days ago. Now if you have something personal against me, I can certainly understand your feeling that way since I can be absolutely nasty (especially if I haven't had at least 7 hours of beauty rest every night) and have been known to be also very opinionated at times. In fact, I can be so mean-spirited that I can get podiatrists from 6,000 miles away from my little computer to say that I am offensive (actually I was better known for my defensive skills since I was never much of a scorer in any sport). But poor Simon, he is such a lovable fellow....with never anything rude or offensive to say to anyone....how could you not just want to hug him? :p
On a more serious note....regarding your postings in which you state that physics can not be used to describe biological systems. Kate, this is such pure utter nonsense that I will end this discussion with you by stating that you need to come out into the bright light and look at the wonders of the modern world of research biomechanics.You see, physics is the basis of what we, in the modern research and clinical world, use for the study of the mechanical properties of biological systems. Your statement:
Quote:
Physics can be used to describe the motions of the skeletal system only in a dead body.
When Newton was referring to 'the body' he meant 'the inanimate body' eg: a bullet, since physics deals exclusively with inanimate matter & energy, excluding vitality.
The study of biomechanics relates to biology not physics.
is ludicrous!! Really, Kate, if you made that statement to any PhD biomechanist anywhere on this planet, they would probably think you were either crazy or hopefully just a poorly informed individual that doesn't know when to keep their opinions quiet.
Here is a good definition of biomechanics for you to start with:
Quote:
According to Benno Nigg's chapter "Definition of Biomechanics"(in Nigg, Benno M. and Walter Herzog (eds): Biomechanics of the Musculoskeletal System, John Wiley and Sons, New York, 1994) biomechanics is defined as follows:
"Biomechanics is the science that examines forces acting upon and within a biological structure and effects produced by such forces." p. 2
Here are some other references for you to study if the goal of yours is to become more educated on physics and biomechanics. However, if your goal in making these statements is to draw a certain individual into a public argument with you then you will likely have little success in doing so:
Quote:
Alexander, R. McNeill: The Human Machine. Columbia University Press. London, 1992.
Alexander, R. McNeill: Principles of Animal Locomotion, Princeton University Press, Princeton, New Jersey, 2003.
Valmassy, R.L.(editor), Clinical Biomechanics of the Lower Extremities, Mosby-Year Book, St. Louis, 1996.
Frederick, EC (ed) :Sports Shoes and Playing Surfaces: Biomechanical Properties, Human Kinetics Publishers, Inc., Champaign, Illinois, 1984.
Cavanagh, Peter R. (ed): Biomechanics of Distance Running. Human Kinetics Books, Champaign, Illinois, 1990.
Mow, Van C. and Wilson C. Hayes: Basic Orthopaedic Biomechanics, 2nd ed. Lippincott-Raven Publishers, Philadelphia, 1997.
Kirby KA: Foot and Lower Extremity Biomechanics: A Ten Year Collection of Precision Intricast Newsletters. Precision Intricast, Inc., Payson, Arizona, 1997.
Kirby KA: Foot and Lower Extremity Biomechanics II: Precision Intricast Newsletters, 1997-2002. Precision Intricast, Inc., Payson, AZ, 2002.
Kirby KA.: Podiatric biomechanics: An integral part of evaluating and treating the athlete. Med. Exerc.Nutr. Health, 2(4):196-202, 1993.
Nigg BM and W. Herzog (eds): Biomechanics of the Musculo-skeletal System, 2nd Edition,John Wiley and Sons, New York, 1999, pp. 423-532.
Nigg, B.M. (ed.). Biomechanics of Running Shoes, Human Kinetics Publishers, Inc., Champaign, Illinois, 1986.
Nigg, B.M., Barry Karr. Biomechanical Aspects of Sport Shoes and Playing Surfaces, The University of Calgary, Calgary,1983.
Nigg, Benno M. and Walter Herzog (eds.): Biomechanics of the Musculoskeletal System. John Wiley and Sons, New York, 1994.
Nigg BM, MacIntosh BR, Mester J (eds.): Bomechanics and Biology of Movement. Human Kinetics, Champaign, IL, 2000.
Ozkaya, Nihat and Margareta Nordin: Fundamentals of Biomechanics: Equilibrium, Motion and Deformation. 2nd Edition. Springer Science & Business Media, Inc, New York, 1999.
Robertson, Gordon E.: Introduction to Biomechanics for Human Motion Analysis, Waterloo Biomechanics, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada, 1997.
Rose J, Gamble JG (eds.): Human Walking, 2nd ed. Williams and Wilkins, Baltimore, 1994.
Root ML, Orien WP, Weed JH: Normal and Abnormal Function of the Foot. Clinical Biomechanics Corp., Los Angeles, CA, 1977.
Vogel, Steven: Cat's Paws and Catapults: Mechanical Worlds of Nature and People, W.W. Norton and Company, New York, 1998.
Watkins, James: Structure and Function of the Musculoskeletal System. Human Kinetics Publishers, Champaign, IL, 1999.
Winter, David A.: A.B.C. (Anatomy, Biomechanics and Control) of Balance During Standing and Walking. Waterloo Biomechanics, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada, 1995.
Winter, D.A.: Biomechanics and Motor Control of Human Movement, 2nd ed. John Wiley and Sons, New York, 1990.
__________________
Sincerely,
Kevin
**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College
Had they described biophysics I would not have entered this debate!
Not quite sure as to whether Simon is warm and cuddly, Kevin??!!
I can empathise somewhat with Kate's point in that, and forgive me if I am wrong, the use of terminology is the concern here, not the concept of biomechanics.
As you have said many times, Kevin, until we are using scientific terminology that is coherent across many disciplines, communication of understanding will continue to cause problems
cheers
Tony
Not quite sure as to whether Simon is warm and cuddly, Kevin??!!
I can empathise somewhat with Kate's point in that, and forgive me if I am wrong, the use of terminology is the concern here, not the concept of biomechanics.
As you have said many times, Kevin, until we are using scientific terminology that is coherent across many disciplines, communication of understanding will continue to cause problems
cheers
Tony
Tony:
Biomechanics is the more commonly used term to describe the mechanical analysis of biological systems. I think that one should look at scholarly journals for the correct terminology: Journal of Biomehanics, Clinical Biomechanics, Journal of Applied Biomechanics, Applied Bionics and Biomechanics, Biomechanics and Modeling in Mechanobiology, Journal of Biomechanical Engineering.
I believe that the term "Biophysics" is a more broad term to include multiple biological disciplines and not specifically dealing with mechanics. I have not come across the term "biophysics" when interacting with members of the international biomechanics community over the past 20+ years. From my limited understanding of the term "biophysics", it generally deals with chemical interactions at the molecular level. I believe it was called "biophysical chemistry" during my undergraduate years.
__________________
Sincerely,
Kevin
**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College
99% may be an unfair estimate. It is probably more like 99.67% (OK, I'll admit it is only a guess :p) from my discussions and lectures to podiatrists in 7 countries, my lectures at podiatric biomechanics seminars in these countries for the past 21 years and my review of the last 40 years of podiatric biomechanics literature. What would your estimate of Dr. Spooner's knowledge be, Javier? How many times have you been invited to lecture out of Spain on podiatric biomechanics? And why have you not had the opportunity to research and publish? What is preventing you from doing so? I would say that I am respectful to all those that show respect to others and don't try to use this forum to promote their own self-serving ideas and don't criticize respected members of the podiatry community for purposes that have nothing to do with academic disagreements.
However, Javier, I am sorry if I offended you. Good luck with your upcoming research and publication of that research.
One should be judged on what they type/say, and how they support it. The number of degrees you have, and how high/low you are in the acedemic hierarchy should be absolutely irrelevant.
One should be judged on what they type/say, and how they support it. The number of degrees you have, and how high/low you are in the acedemic hierarchy should be absolutely irrelevant.
Ron:
This is only true in a perfect world, one that we don't live in. When was the last time that someone that did not have any degree and had no faculty appointment lectured at a scientific seminar that you attended?? The only person that I know that lectures at podiatric seminars that doesn't have a degree is Jeff Root, but his name speaks for itself.
The truth of the matter is that the leaders of any profession just don't appear on the scene, they have done something significant or have done many significant things over a long period of time to be elevated to that position. They have published research, invented techniques or theories or tests, or have promoted their profession in some positive way. It doesn't happen overnight but is a long, painstaking process that very few individuals are capable of achieving within each profession. Ron, please name one individual that is respected within the academic world of the podiatric profession that does not have a degree and doesn't have a faculty appointment. I am interested in your response to this since you obviously feel that some people just come about all this knowledge and wisdom naturally, without having to work for it by attaining long hours of study and attaining academic degrees.
Finally, Javier asked how I knew that Simon Spooner had greater knowledge in biomechanics than 99% of the podiatrists around the world. I simply stated that I believe I have a very good appreciation of what the state of biomechanics knowledge around the world is within the podiatry profession, since I have lectured in many countries, lectured to and taught thousands of podiatrists in biomechanics over the past 21 years and personally know and am friends with most of the leaders within podiatric biomechanics around the world. In fact, come to think about it more, saying that Simon Spooner is only smarter in podiatric biomechanics than 99 out of every 100 podiatrists around the world is probably an insult to him.
__________________
Sincerely,
Kevin
**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College
This is only true in a perfect world, one that we don't live in. When was the last time that someone that did not have any degree and had no faculty appointment lectured at a scientific seminar that you attended?? The only person that I know that lectures at podiatric seminars that doesn't have a degree is Jeff Root, but his name speaks for itself.
The truth of the matter is that the leaders of any profession just don't appear on the scene, they have done something significant or have done many significant things over a long period of time to be elevated to that position. They have published research, invented techniques or theories or tests, or have promoted their profession in some positive way. It doesn't happen overnight but is a long, painstaking process that very few individuals are capable of achieving within each profession. Ron, please name one individual that is respected within the academic world of the podiatric profession that does not have a degree and doesn't have a faculty appointment. I am interested in your response to this since you obviously feel that some people just come about all this knowledge and wisdom naturally, without having to work for it by attaining long hours of study and attaining academic degrees.
Finally, Javier asked how I knew that Simon Spooner had greater knowledge in biomechanics than 99% of the podiatrists around the world. I simply stated that I believe I have a very good appreciation of what the state of biomechanics knowledge around the world is within the podiatry profession, since I have lectured in many countries, lectured to and taught thousands of podiatrists in biomechanics over the past 21 years and personally know and am friends with most of the leaders within podiatric biomechanics around the world. In fact, come to think about it more, saying that Simon Spooner is only smarter in podiatric biomechanics than 99 out of every 100 podiatrists around the world is probably an insult to him.
Kevin.
You talk about the utopia of a perfect world, and then refer to the academic world as if itself is indeed perfect. If it was perfect, then I guess, respect within it, is an understandable goal.
That is an nth order priority for some of us. I just want to be good at my job and earn a living.
On one hand you can't fathom anybody 'low' on the academic hierarchial tree having anything to contribute. On the other you raise Root. It epitomises what is possible, and thank goodness, for his sake that he ain't an unknown 'newcomer' here jousting verbally with respected heavyweights.
I will answer your question this way. I graduated more than a decade ago, and as a young green graduate, rushed out to seminars to absorb all that I could from those respected persons with an alphabet after their name. All I got was virtually critical analysis of literature. This if fine, but it wasn't what I paid for. I wanted to be a better practitioner the following Monday.
It may suprise you, but a sports trainer at a suburban football club (St.Kilda) here in Melbourne, taught me more about strapping/taping for instance than any other person or institution or seminar. Doubt he even finished school.
I learn a bit here as well, but not only from the Kirby's, Smith's and Fuller's; but also from the Fellners, the Scorpios and others etc.
And I would like to learn from a P&O about semi-weight-bearing casting and EVA devices.
Common sense is not learnt at university; or does not magically arrive after a PhD. Getting patients better is at least 70% common sense.
I agree with you though that Kate's point is a touch pedantic and quit harsh. However, Simon admitted to making fun of another poster here only last week. I am sure we are big enough to take some of our own medicine.
Would you please explain how physics is applied to self adjusting biological systems?
Physics is: 'The sciences that treat of inanimate matter and of energy,
apart from vitality.'
What exists without the direct influence of energy? Nothing. Therefore, what exists without the direct influence of physics? Nothing... not a thought, not love, and certainly not foot/leg function
Quantum mechanics and parallel philosophical thought/debate may soon require an update to your directorate in life (the Oxford Dictionary).
Mr Spooner, (& now it seems others) are challenging the definition of pure physics.
Had they described biophysics I would not have entered this debate!!
As I have stated, medicine is a specific science & as such, so called experts should surely use specific terms.
I have no 'bug bear' with anyone, I just like people to say what they mean.
If we do not use the English language accurately, how can we hope to be scientifically accurate?
Hi Kate,
Just to agree with your observation re the word physics.
Good one - and had it emanated from another (shall we say) more well-known direction it would probably have been applauded. As it is, an observation, coupled with what you (correctly IMO) see as another contributors attitude (not a personal attack - you want to see an attack look over some previous posts where I or Ian Linane have contributed) has merely ruffled a few feathers and caused a little fuss (never a bad thing IMO).
So, having checked two dictionaries, I'm with you.
You are quite correct.
Biomechanics is not physics Simon!
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