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Recent Job Advertisement on NHS jobs

Job Title: Podiatric Surgery Trainee
Employer: Northamptonshire Teaching PCT
Department: Podiatry
Salary: N/A

oh, and why is it N/A, because its a bloody honorary post!

This is a joke, only in Podiatry would you expect someone working at AfC grade 7/8a to work for free!

I myself currently work within a Podiatric Surgery unit and am looking for podiatric surgery trainee posts. I however will not be applying for this, i don't believe anyone should have to.

Some Podiatric Surgeons argue that these posts may lead to paid opportunities. Brilliant, well what are we supposed to do in the mean time, live in a tent?

Other old school surgeons argue "they had to do it" well boohoo. We are in a different economic climate than we used to be.

You don't see SHO / ST1's (medical profession) in surgery having to work for free (lets call it honorary to make it sound good!).

This profession is a joke, Podiatrists who are working at advanced levels being asked to work for free! You don't see bloody diabetes specialist (honorary) posts do you.

Podiatric Surgery departments are taking advantage of those people who really have a desire to become Podiatric Surgeons, because they know people will apply!

Unfortunately, they are making people like myself, who have worked hard to be in a position to have an MSc in Podiatric surgery and work within a busy surgery unit consider leaving the profession. What a farce!

The consultants (not all) aren't really arsed because they are AfC band 9 are couldnt give a ****.

(don't get me started on the fact that all consultants should have a trainee, and not sit on their arse once knighted with the title consultant)

What do others think???

oh and for our friends across the pond, a podiatric surgery trainee is in someway similiar to doing a PM&S 36 (removing some of the rotations and on call) for no pay, subsidies or expenses at all.

The salary may be negotiable when the right candidate has been selected after interview and how many days they wish to do etc has been decided. Do you have the link to the full advert?

Sorry didn't read it properly and missed the "honourary post" bit. That doesnt seen right, how can people afford to go for the post with no salary?

Oh the youth of today!

I understand where you are coming from, however I should point out that back in the old days it was not unusual for trainees to be charged for attending a pupillage. Unless you happened to work for a trust that had a surgery unit, you would at least have to loose a days wages, or reorganise your week to make the hours up somewhere else.

If you are committed and knuckle down there are some rewards to be had down the road. Also it has been known that an unpaid post becomes a paid post over time.

Oh and if you start comparing things to the USA, dont forget that podiatry students face extremely large student debt due to the nature of tertiary education in the US. Ten years ago I was talking to a US pod resident and he had a $100000 student debt to pay off.

I guess it depends where one draws the "trained" line. After all we charge undergraduates to train towards being trained to degree level. If (and I stress if) one considers the "consultant" grade to be the fully trained autonomous practitioner then is it unreasonable to charge for the training to that level?

If one considers that the consultant trains the trainee and the trainee pays the consultant by being useful and seeing patients this system seems fair. If one considers that the trainee is doing the work and the consultant trains them for free its not.

Regards
Robert

simonF you have just fallen in line with the "old school" crap that i mentioned initially. who cares if you had to pay or do it for free boohoo. In those days a 3 bed semi was about 20 pence! don't get me wrong, those who paved the way in pod surg made a great contribution at there own expense, but surely things have to progress.

I hate the comments that go along with "if you want it enough... determined...dedicated blah blah blah" simply we cannot afford to work for free anymore!!! and why should we!

robert forgive me for sounding cynical but your babble adds nothing to this conversation.

The simple facts are - consultants on band 8d/9 should all have to take a trainee as part of their contract. How else do we progress. These positions as our medical counterparts should be well paid.

Surgical pupils don't just learn, they are part of the team. Take myself for example, i have worked in a pod surg unit for some time. I can manage outpatient clinic and all inpatient duties barring the cutting, surely that is worth something.

This might sound arrogant, but i don't believe anybody will be able to provide an adequate argument for honorary trainee contracts! except for saving money.

p.s simonf yes it is worth it in the end (if you can get one of the minimal SpR posts available), but how the hell are you supposed to live for the 3 years whilst waiting to get to registrar level.

and once again simon, i couldnt give a crap how it used to be done, having to pay for the bloody priviledge, again what a joke! smoking used to be advertised as an unharmful social engagement, yet we don't still believe that do we?!

Kinda does, yes!

As I said I understand where you are coming from. But, having a trainee in a unit does not speed up the work rate or add anything to the productivity of the surgical team, very often is slows down the process - teaching does after all take away from some direct clinic time - why should an NHS trust pay for the privilege of reducing the activity of the surgical team? Ultimately you might be useful but probably not until you are almost ready for fellowship exam.

Have you had a bad day by any chance?

Further information for those following this discussion: http://www.jobs.nhs.uk/cgi-bin/vacde...tion=912249749

Regards,

Mandy.

__________________
:)
twirly

Mandy Brooks
Brooks Podiatry
S64 0DE

Suffering a fondness for odd things.

DIWS,

Whilst I understand you are not wishing to work for 2 days per week for nothing, perhaps your NHS Trust would permit you to continue for you to keep your full time NHS Salary, and be seconded to the Northampton Trust for those 2 days, after all its the same as paying for surgical training?

As an aside, I don't think it stands you any credit to publicise your bitterness on this job advert so publicly on the internet, sorry if that offends.

Furthermore, if you have a Pod Surgery MSc, and work full time in a busy surgical unit, where do you think you can leave the profession for?

In my experience, Podiatry has little transferable skills other than to the private sector, or management.

__________________
“Body: A thing of shreds and patches, borrowed unequally from good and bad ancestors and a misfit from the start”

Ralph Waldo Emerson

Ah. Sorry. When you said

I presumed you were inviting opinions, rather than opinions so long as they agree with you.

I'll leave you to bitch and whine in peace.

To quote the sage, lane 4 all yours sunbeam.

Kindest regards
Robert

PS, Do please show the courage of your convictions and share your name. I'm sure the consultants of the nation will be burning up the telephone exchanges to offer (paid) employment to such a balanced, articulate, literate and pleasant character as yourself.

After reading the job description and it only being 2 days a week for 3 years I agree with Peter that it would most likely be possible to either keep your current position, or move depending where in the country you are, and continue to have a salary, albeit a reduced one, whilst training. Pod surgery posts don't come up that often so a little flexibility may be needed.

If you already work in a Pod surgery unit are you looking to become a Pod surgeon at some point?

I think Simon's said it really. Sounds like you're having a bad day. Yes, of course all training opportunities should be paid as you are doing a portion of work within a unit, but they're not.... yet.

If you are serious about your thoughts on giving up, have you considered what else you might do, or is that you are just frustrated with this situation and you are venting your anger by posting on here? I don't think it's fair to knock some of your potential employers as it's often not their decision on how a training post is funded (management, etc...). Hope you're OK and your day gets better.

Been reading this stream of consciousness with interest. As a so-called senior pod, all I can add is that I really do want all the trainee posts to be paid for too, but we have to present a management case for each paid post and they are not always supportive. Until the posts are funded from region like medical training posts we will always have this problem. However someone suggested a paid secondment from your current Trust which is what I did when I trained in Lewisham in 1992 (!), so you can put forward a case for funding as a long-term course and see if you get support. The problem with all of this is it depends on the philosophy of your line management and the availability of funds (as above). We have been lucky enough in my department to build over the last 3 years from 4 full-time staff to 12 full-time paid posts including 2 paid registrar grades. Unfortunately the one thing that may have to give is the trainee post as I don't think my Trust will wear the case for more staffing and as Simon says and I agree - there is no advantage for us in having a novice surgeon in toe! Apart from the enjoyment in training you guys up so you can take the profession further forward. Don't forget the enormous gains we have made over the last 15 years. When paid consultant posts were first being discussed (Tom Galloway and Nick Gilbert's posts in Hereford), the idea was not really given much chance by our now elders of our profession. So we are still really a fledgling profession with many more battles to fight. If its too hot for you then get out of the kitchen.

Well said, sir.

To quote Noel Gallagher:
"You can have it all but how much do you want it?
You make me laugh
Give me your autograph"

P.S. I self-funded 3 years of my PhD time and have been self-funding research projects ever since- so I'm kind of biased.

__________________
Science is the antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition

My location

Hi diws,

You need to look at whether you want to train or not.

If you want to train I can't see that a couple of days a week unpaid is any different to the time taken out to do a Masters or a Phd, and plenty of people on here have done or are doing that.

If you want a different profession go and do Medicine.

I really can't see the problem

Hello DIWS

I suppose that I am 'old school' in that I had to pay for my own surgical training. However, I was, and am, very grateful to those individuals - Allard-Williams, Galloway and Gilbert amongst them- who GAVE (emphasis, not shouting) me their time and knowledge to allow me to achieve what I have achieved. I take it that Reilly is likewise giving his time and expertise and it really is somewhat graceless for a junior to attack their seniors in the way that you have chosen, particularly since that senior does not dictate the management policies of his employing Trust.

The world is not ideal - we all wish that it was. Who told you that it was going to be fair? They lied!

I suggest that you write at length to Northamptonshire PCT providing them with your concerns and then return to this site and report back their reply. That would be the considered, appropriate, mature and courageous action to take. Incidentally, as a tip for the future, you will find that the vast majority of Consultant Podiatric Surgeons will be looking for those very characteristics in their trainees.

Good luck

W J Liggins

Mr./Ms./Mrs. DIWS:

First of all, your complaints would mean much more to me, and many of the rest following along, if you had the courage and courtesy of giving us your name, instead of making anonymous complaints. Complaining about the way things are, without having the conviction to let us know who you really are, carries very little weight.

Secondly, do you think that podiatric surgeons in the United States are all paid well for the countless hours and sacrifices they put into their four years of podiatry school and surgical residencies? No they are not. Nearly all of us take out huge amounts of student loans during our four years of podiatry school and nearly all of us barely scrape by during our surgical residencies, while our student loans are often causing us to grow increasingly in debt. Getting the best podiatric education does not come cheap and is not easy. If it was, then everyone would or could do it.

If you do want to be a surgeon, then why not take out a loan to get you through the harder times until you can make more income like we all do here in the States. Certainly, you must sometimes spend money to make money. I spent plenty of money to get where I am today and the podiatry students of today in the United States are spending much more money for their podiatric education and surgical residencies than I ever had to spend. If you don't strongly desire to be a podiatric surgeon, then I suggest that you should do something else with the rest of your life and quit complaining anonymously.

As many individuals on Podiatry Arena already know, I don't have a lot of sympathy for someone who complains anonymously about their country's educational system. However, I do have a lot of respect for those who are not afraid to step forward into the light of day to try to improve their country's podiatric educational system, are willing to suffer the possible consequences of doing so, all with the knowledge that eventually their actions will help themselves and their colleagues that succeed them reap the rewards of an improved podiatric surgical educational system for their country.

__________________
Sincerely,

Kevin

**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College

e-mail: kevinakirby@comcast.net

Private Practice:
107 Scripps Drive, Suite 200
Sacramento, CA 95825 USA
My location

Voice: (916) 925-8111 Fax: (916) 925-8136
**************************************************

Pun intended?

Hi! I got fed up reading this thread- so never finished it! I live in Scotland and would only be too glad to have an oportunity arise similar to this- even if unpaid!!! I have my final year to do for my Msc which i have put off due to the fact there are no pod surgeons in Scotland and was told by a lecturer if i wanted to pursue this as a career option i would need to leave the country!!! Thus my motivation is almost nil- i have even considered becoming a vet!!

I was notified of this thread by a colleague. I do not normally visit this site and I am unlikely to visit again to view replies if any. I entirely agree with Kevin Kirby and my old colleague Bill Liggins about the sacrifices made by others in the past and now in systems which charge for training or expect nil pay.
If the anonymous poster is up to date with Faculty of Surgery decisions he would know that notice has been posted that from 2012 (I think, maybe 2015) no unpaid posts will be recognised for training purposes. The deal is to give time for serious people like Ian Reilly to obtain funding. It has taken me four years to develop a fully funded training post whic we intend to advertise next year, cuts permitting.
The individual who declines to be known should appreciate that if we had waited for fully funded posts in an hostile environment he and I would not be discussing training at all.
Progress is on the back of endeavour and the shoulders of those that have gone before, be grateful they were more prepared to make sacrifices than you are.

Ralph Graham ralph@ralphgraham.org

Hi Ralph

Thanks for the response-I myself have only seen the original post by DIWS today and read through all the posts with interest.I fully agree with everyone who responded about the fact that sometimes in life one has to "sacrifice" something in order to obtain the ultimate goal.My personal opinion is that DIWS was just whining!! and personally if I had the opportunity to work with Ian Reilly I certainly would-for free as well,purely because of what I would learn from him.

DIWS....By the way I worked for approx two and a half years in an honorary surgical post and it was honestly the best time of my life.

I am glad though that funding will be available in the future for paying trainees.

However I must say that working "pro-bono" to be TRAINED is a small price to pay.Surely DIWS can supplement your income by doing a Saturday locum job? DIWS you cant have your cake and eat it!If you are serious about surgery my advice is get on with it and stop whingeing.our profession doesnt need people like you-rather we need people who will go teh extra mile to get us to where we ought to be.If you think medical registarrs dont work hard think again!!!Apologies if this sounds harsh but I do beleive you are way out of line on this one.

Faye