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It seems those chaps at Asics have done it again - they've somehow found that there is an optimal degree of pronation (15 degrees incase you were wondering)

See this linky

Does a huge reputable running shoe company perpetuating this sh!te make anyone else cry into their cornflakes or is it just me... sigh...

Ian

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Oh really, 15 degrees of pronation is optimum, who on earth came up with that absolute classic!!

Is 15 degrees of calcaneal eversion not pretty much full end range of eversion excursion anyhow (on average)?

So an overpronator is someone who pronates more than 15 degrees ( haven't seen many of those) and a shoe alone is going to correct this malalignment?

Where did the author get his facts from, would make for interesting reading, Ian dont go ruining your cornflakes, its not worth it!!

15 degrees may be normal from the inverted position at contact to maximum eversion. I know from the Williams & Mclay et al study on inverted vs standard orthoses vs no orthoses, that the mean eversion excursion of all 3 groups was 15 or so degrees, so I guess that is what they referring to.

The amount would be much less if measured as the amount of eversion past vertical. The ASICS article should have made it clearer

Anyone who has been to a Boot Camp knows my views and thought processes on STJ range of motion. For straight ahead walking on a hard surface, we probably only need 4 degrees of eversion and no inversion...but if we want to turn a corner, we going to need more. ...if you going to play tennis, you going to need a huge amount more.

I have seen a slow motion video of a high jump foot plant and take off and the STJ/rearfoot complex everted (pronated), something like 50-60 degrees.

What is the normal range? There isn't one becasue it activity dependent.

Having said that, someone at ASICS need to be put before a firing squad as that article promotes the Wet Test for foot pronation. (Simon ... were are you?)

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Craig Payne
Department of Podiatry
La Trobe University
Melbourne, Australia
http://www.latrobe.edu.au/podiatry
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God put me on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things - right now I am so far behind, I will never die.
The views expressed above are those of the author and not that of La Trobe University
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?????????

Thats a pronating foot that doesn't pronate right?

And what is mild over pronation??

nnnngggghhhh

BwaaaaaaaAaaaaaahhhhhhhhh

15 degrees from where exactly!?

We see again the rift between modernist and post modernist biomechanics!

Depressing init.

Robert

Craig
I believe I have seen the same footage and I actually dispute this... The shoe does dramatically distort, but I thik it is the foot shifting medially against the heel counter that does this rather than subtalar pronation. If you can find the footage and post it we can judge...
Cheers
Craig T

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Craig Tanner
Podiatrist
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Qatar Orthopaedic and Sports Medicine Hospital
Doha
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http://www.aspetar.com/

I'm with you on this one Craig. I recently wrote some bits for a trainer website and they included the wet foot test and put my name to it. To say I was upset was an understatement... still trying to get it changed

Yep I wouldnt mind seeing this if anyone has it. Just did a crude you tube search and got nowt

Ian

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Found it...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6R8j...layer_embedded
What do you think?
I will let admin embed it- it is late and I am going to bed....

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Craig Tanner
Podiatrist
ASPETAR-
Qatar Orthopaedic and Sports Medicine Hospital
Doha
QATAR
http://www.aspetar.com/

Here you go:



Discuss...

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You probably right. BUT, the point I was making is that there is NO normal range... the range is activity dependent.

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Craig Payne
Department of Podiatry
La Trobe University
Melbourne, Australia
http://www.latrobe.edu.au/podiatry
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________
God put me on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things - right now I am so far behind, I will never die.
The views expressed above are those of the author and not that of La Trobe University
This is where I am, where are you?

Activity and subject dependent:

Subtalar joint motion = a function of (genotype + environment) + (genotype x environment) + measurement error.

As for the video, there is obviously deformation of the shoe, but there is also probably more subtalar joint pronation than is commonly cited as the "end of range" It would be nice to see a barefoot one. Moreover, given the "equation above, it seems likely given the biomechanics of high jump individuals who perform this frequently should have different "range of motion" in their take off versus non take off foot.

Please also note that the subtalar joint axial orientation is constantly changing throughout motion, therefore the planal dominance is also changing. The degree of subtalar joint pronation does not = the degree of calcaneal eversion, so the measurement frame is important.

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Not normally being one to boast about the size of his tools, but I just got myself a new digital video (casio exilim) that can record at 1500 frame/sec (all current video cameras are 25 frames/sec)....all I gotto do now is find myself a high jumper!

__________________
Craig Payne
Department of Podiatry
La Trobe University
Melbourne, Australia
http://www.latrobe.edu.au/podiatry
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________
God put me on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things - right now I am so far behind, I will never die.
The views expressed above are those of the author and not that of La Trobe University
This is where I am, where are you?

I was a county standard high jumper in my youth, unfortunately as I now have a ruptured ACL, partially ruptured PCL, torn lateral meniscus and severe bone oedema in my right knee, I won't be able to help- doh. Rugby- it's not big and it's not clever.

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Well Craig,
actually i am in Africa for ISB right now, so I only just got to read this wonderful diatribe.
You know... this is the kinda crap that just leaves me in despair. It has come out of the UK, and is posted on the ASICS UK website... God knows who the hell wrote it (although I have my suspicions), and where they got their information from, but it is a huge embarrasment to me.
I just need to do a little resaerch from here and find out who to yell at....

See you Friday in Stellenbosch

__________________
Craig Payne
Department of Podiatry
La Trobe University
Melbourne, Australia
http://www.latrobe.edu.au/podiatry
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________
God put me on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things - right now I am so far behind, I will never die.
The views expressed above are those of the author and not that of La Trobe University
This is where I am, where are you?

Simon:

Good to see that Asics is the first running shoe company to have figured out the magic number for the correct amount of pronation lies at 15 degrees.

I think that Asics should have picked a number like 14.75 degrees, and then they would really have sounded like they had the data to back that claim up.

Oh well, only one of the joys for working for such a huge corporation.....

Hope you and Craig and Bart all have fun in South Africa. Couldn't make it since I still need to see patients to make a living...... but a little bit of me will be there in Bart's lecture.

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Sincerely,

Kevin

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Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College

e-mail: kevinakirby@comcast.net

Private Practice:
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Bart van Gheul showed a high speed video of a high jumper at one of the John Weed conferences. At the time he said he couldn't find a high jumper who would be willing to do it bare foot.

Cheers,

Eric

Seems that Runners World concur that 15 degrees is 'normal'

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I am pretty sure that the footage above is Bart's- not sure if he posted it or not...

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Craig Tanner
Podiatrist
ASPETAR-
Qatar Orthopaedic and Sports Medicine Hospital
Doha
QATAR
http://www.aspetar.com/

In regards to this "normal pronation is 15 degrees" idea that seems to be gaining ground on the internet, it looks like it's time for........The Myth Busters!!!

Attached Images

Mythbusters.jpg (39.1 KB, 261 views)

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Sincerely,

Kevin

**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College

e-mail: kevinakirby@comcast.net

Private Practice:
107 Scripps Drive, Suite 200
Sacramento, CA 95825 USA
My location

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Hi all,

As you may have noticed we (ASICS) pulled the article from the sites this morning.

Thanks a lot for pointing out this problem, and we're working hard internally to reformulate our explanation in a correct way. As some of you pointed out, we didn't mean "optimal" as a norm, but more as a median measure, that helps people understand the issue. In our enthusiasm to simplify, we've obviously gone over to stating erroneous things.

We'll be back with a better article, including improved illustrations, in a few days.

Best regards,

Raphaël Mazoyer, Digital Communications Manager, ASICS Europe

Raphael:

Thanks for removing that piece of misinformation from your company's website. This will help keep Asics as one of the most respected athletic/running shoe companies within the international podiatry community.

However, one word of advice is in order. The next time Asics decides to post something as obviously uncertain and incorrect as the "optimal amount of pronation" on a public website, you may want to consider having the website pre-approved by someone with great knowledge in these matters, such as Simon Bartold, rather than causing a potentially embarrassing situation for Asics with gross misinformation being displayed for all to see.

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Sincerely,

Kevin

**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College

e-mail: kevinakirby@comcast.net

Private Practice:
107 Scripps Drive, Suite 200
Sacramento, CA 95825 USA
My location

Voice: (916) 925-8111 Fax: (916) 925-8136
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Raphaël - the information on the wet footprint test is still there. You not doing ASICS any favours having it there, not to mention Simon pulling his hair out (he might end up like me ).

In case, you have not seen it, here is the evidence on just how bogus that test is. Interestingly, in that thread, Simon said: I guess he must not have been talking avout ASICS

__________________
Craig Payne
Department of Podiatry
La Trobe University
Melbourne, Australia
http://www.latrobe.edu.au/podiatry
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________
God put me on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things - right now I am so far behind, I will never die.
The views expressed above are those of the author and not that of La Trobe University
This is where I am, where are you?

Hey Kevin,

Advice well taken, and while we've been pushing hard to convey our position in a stronger way, we haven't yet worked out all the elements of the process. This is all fairly new for us -- this knowledge floats around the company, with many incredibly knowledgeable people working around the development of products, but actually coming out and clearly stating our position is quite a challenge.

Basically, we're trying to fill a gap between supply-side information ("we developed this technology because...") and individual specialized information (podiatrists or other specialists in this field giving personal advice based on observation), with the intention to thoroughly inform consumers. Clearly, we must do so without losing any of the rigor and accuracy of our research.

Again, thanks a bunch for your critical eye, I'm grateful for the high expectations you have of ASICS!

-Raphaël

Raphael:

This is also the "thin ice" that we clinicians tread when we write articles or give lectures to the lay public. We also find it necessary to sometimes "dumb down" the message to the public, by using less precise terminology, to describe the very complex three-dimensional kinetics and kinematics of the human foot and lower extremity during weightbearing activities. We need to do this in order to provide a basic message that is informational, but also not inaccurate, to the public.

For example, in the case of describing pronation motion of the foot, a more accurate way of approaching this subject for a public website of a major athletic shoe manufacturer would be to avoid any discrete numerical values that describe optimum magnitudes of pronation motion. Rather, the website should state that pronation of the foot is a normal motion that is required in both walking and running activities, with more motion normally being necessary during running than walking. Excessive pronation can lead to specific types of foot and lower extremity injury, but in each individual, the amount of pronation that produces injury varies from one person to another. In addition, a foot that pronates too little during activities may also suffer from injury with, again, the type of injury depending on the specific mechanical characteristics of the individual's musculoskeletal system. In order for the individual to find the best running or athletic shoe, they need to look for a shoe that will provide the optimal level of pronation, neither too much, nor too little, that will allow them to participate fully in their activity or sport with the greatest mechanical efficiency and with the least chance of injury.

The above statement could be put into any of the public websites of the major shoe manufacturers with minimal complaints from the international podiatric medical community. In addition, it would provide the public with a much better understanding of the basic mechanics of foot pronation, as we currently understand it, so that this knowledge may be used to positively affect the shoe selection of the purchasing public for their particular sports activity.

Hope this helps.

__________________
Sincerely,

Kevin

**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College

e-mail: kevinakirby@comcast.net

Private Practice:
107 Scripps Drive, Suite 200
Sacramento, CA 95825 USA
My location

Voice: (916) 925-8111 Fax: (916) 925-8136
**************************************************

Hi Raphaël,

Many thanks for your input here. Its great to see ASICS representatives reading this forum, and responding positively to what we mull over. Really pleased the page has been pulled from the site, as if runners continue to read old and dated terminology and erroneous facts it makes our jobs much harder. Looking forward to the new version. As Kevin says, when you have someone of Simon Bartolds calibre on board it would be criminal not to take advantage of that.

All the best

Ian

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I m pretty sure they also use the 'wet test' on their reference charts to show people what Asics trainer they need

Hi Raphael,

Is the new improved article completed yet? I could not find it on your UK website whilst looking in the Knowledge section today. (Craig, don't look you'll get upset that the wet foot test still features heavily)

Ian

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Hey Ian,

Nope, we're still tweaking -- this is taking a ridiculous amount of time, but we've got a couple really good articles in the pipeline, so I hope it'll be worth the wait!

-Raphaël

All right, we're getting there!

We just published a new article on gender differences: http://www.asics.co.uk/running/knowl...nted-for-women

Please let us know what you think of it!

Also, the article on pronation is getting its final round of editing and illustrating, and will go to press very soon. Simon approved most of it: we still haven't gotten rid of the wet test, but are working on that as well.