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Hi,

Can anyone please explain to me why self-employment has to be at at least 2 sites?
I am in discussion with a Physio re: 60:40 fee sharing and he has recently told me that I have to be working at another site or sites. I was hoping to build up to full time working at the one site.
This is a new one for me and I would appreciate a simple explanation.

I contacted a business advisor and he has been unable to provide an explanation, he kindly sent me a number of potentially helpful links but I have yet to find an answer.

Is there any way around this i.e. renting a room in shared premises (is it the fee-sharing which presents the problem), or any other means to facilitate full time self-employment at one site?

Hope to have some light shed on this soon...

Its so that you avoid being an employee, so there is no liability for tax and NI to the physio. I would not accept the 60:40 ratio as that is very steep....

Julian

Hello jambutty,
I have never heard of this 2-site working arrangement having any connection with self-employment. Surely, if you are a contractor and not an employee then that will be made very clear on your contract of association along with all the other terms and conditions?

When you say 60/40 I presume you mean a 60/40 ratio in favour of the physio? If so then this is outrageous. What you would basically be doing is paying all his costs and working for peanuts. In addition I am sure you would be referring patients to him and creating income for him that way.
At the end of the day you are taking full clinical responsibility for the patients you see - he certainly isn't taking 60% of it - so you should have a fee commensurate with that.

If you are an SCP Member you could check this out with the Employment Relations Officer at HQ.

I would see if you can negotiate a better deal, if not I would move on.

Dido

Hi all,
1stly - so the Physio would be liable for my tax etc should I work 5 days (or more) on his premises - or is there a limit to self employment on the same premises based on hours? Sorry to persist with this questionning but I cannot find a rationale for this anywhere - presumably it has something to do with employment law?
2ndly - the 60:40 split would be in my favour, but even this seems a little steep - certainly based on full books once the business is established.
Thanks.

Hi

If you are renting the space you are self employed and should have an agreement to reflect what is and is not included. You will be liable for tax and NI based on your profit, although you have to pay your NI stamp every week (£2 I think). The physio is not liable for your tax/NI unless the relationship becomes one of employer/employee - see the HMRC website area "employed or self employed".

If it is your business, then you should either pay a sessional rate (ie a fixed amount per hour or per session or per day), a fee share ie 25% of your takings, or a monthly fee to cover all expenses, and includes which days/times you can use the room. It does not matter how many sites you work from....is the physio just trying to get 2 lots of rent?

to pay 40% of your earnings may be too high, but you need to ask what is included? If receptionist, all bills (except your stock and your equipment servicing costs) is included then it might be cheaper than you having to set up in your own premises. You need to do the maths. We charge our Chiropractors/reflexologists etc 25% of their takings, this includes receptionist, couch roll, use of couch, internet access and we give them a page on the website, free use of debit/credit card machine, etc. So they only pay for their advertising and any other equipment, any consumables they use.

It works well, they pay when they are earning but not when they are not there.

On one site we pay an hourly rate (£7/hour) for a fixed number of hours, same days each week. There is no receptionist and we have to supply everything we use (inc computers) ourselves. The downside is we pay whether we use the room or not.

I hope this helps

Julian

ps fee shares for associates are much lower typically 40:60 (in favour of the practice) as the practice owner pays for everything (i mean everything!) all the pod does is turn up and work. If you are not an associate who just works there then you should pay not more than 25%-ish....if your fees will be £100k per annum (average for a 1 chair clinic) then you will be paying £25k on the fee share. Is it not better to agree a 25% fee share for the first 3 months then go onto a sessional rate eg £12/hour (if receptionist) less if no receptionist? What about costs of orthoses? are they calculated into the fees or separated - it seems daft to include them as you will pay 25% (probably the profit element) straight to the physio.....

pps if a 5 day week is £100k turnover you can work out the 25% for being there 3 days a week eg £25k divided by 5 multiplied by 3 = £15k per annum

ppps this months podiatry now is private practice focused - contains loads of gr8 info

Hope this helps :-)