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Ireland = no regulation = loads of sales to chiro types = shed load of profit
UK = limited sales = no profit
Their strategy = concentrate on getting current users to SELL more pairs of orthotics to their patients....sod it if they dont need them...the TOG says they do so SELLLLLLL
$$$$$$$$$$$$
*sigh* Someday I'll really say what I think.
NOTE: I believe non-UK users can't see the video feed linked :(
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''The bottom line is too many people prescribe devices who haven't got the faintest idea of what they are doing. There are certain unscrupulous labs supporting this. There are too many people in it for the money.'' paraphrasing Simon Spooner
Reproduced word for word, spelling mistake for spelling mistake. Any comments? Anyone ever hear of the eminent speaker?
Quote:
Hello there
My name is Creina Wickham and I am the Customer Services Administrator with The Orthotic Group. We are Based in the west of Ireland in Ennis Co. Clare and we are the leading distributor of Custom Made Orthotics and Footware throughout Ireland, Northern Ireland and the United Kingdom.
I am delighted to attach some publications about our Revolutionary GaitScan System which is a foot diagnostic tool. The detailed reports produced by the system will enhance your recommendations for the best treatment solutions for your patients such as our custom orthotics and orthotic footware.
I have also attached information about our Gait Analysis & Orthotic Therapy Seminar which is coming up on the 31st March and the 1st April in Dublin. The conference will be hosted by Dr. Kim Ross who is a leading figure in Biomechanics and Orthotic Therapy.
We would be delighted if you could attend or if you require further information please contact me on 00353 0 6568 41140 or cwickham@theorthoticgroup.com.
You can also check our website out www.theorthoticgroup.com
Kind Regards
Creina
Creina Wickham
The Orthotic Group
__________________
''The bottom line is too many people prescribe devices who haven't got the faintest idea of what they are doing. There are certain unscrupulous labs supporting this. There are too many people in it for the money.'' paraphrasing Simon Spooner
__________________
''The bottom line is too many people prescribe devices who haven't got the faintest idea of what they are doing. There are certain unscrupulous labs supporting this. There are too many people in it for the money.'' paraphrasing Simon Spooner
__________________
''The bottom line is too many people prescribe devices who haven't got the faintest idea of what they are doing. There are certain unscrupulous labs supporting this. There are too many people in it for the money.'' paraphrasing Simon Spooner
I've never heard of Dr Ross, but I am definitely aware of TOG - their head office is near my home.
TOG has historically targeted physio and chiropractic clinics as their clients. Most podiatrists and chiropodists in Ontario know better than to use their products. Their marketing package is very appealing to the PTs and DC's because it is very simple to use and because most of their orthotics are generally flexible and low profile, making them very "wearable" for the patients. This new computer scanning system is also appealing to practitioners, especially those who are too lazy or uninformed to formulate their own diagnosis.
Every week, I get patients who wear TOG orthotics that are completely ineffective, so there is good reason for my disdain toward their products. I've got to hand it to TOG, though - their marketing is top-notch.
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Edward Yip
York Foot And And Ankle Clinic
15423 Yonge St
Aurora, ON, Canada
L4G 1P1
905-713-2546
As far as I am aware, Kim Ross's PhD work is focused on the cervical spine not the foot. I have met him several times and he is a very pleasant man.
That aside, I think your collective suspicions are more accurately aimed at the lab rather than the Speaker. Chiropractors are not specifically trained in the art and science of orthotic prescription, fabrication and dispensing. But as already mentioned the majority of TOG's business comes from chiros and perhaps "like teaching like" is the philosophy?
My personal experience was that I tried to obtain a "tour" of the Ontario facility to determine whether the orthoses were being fabricated from a volumetic cast and whether they are "patient specific" or not. The bottom line was that I was denied access and unable to make this determination. I do find it odd that access to such basic information is guarded by TOG. The act of fabricating orthoses is not a patented process and I have yet to see any truly unique custom-made procedures in the 17 years that I have been in practise. As someone who works for several insurance companies in "claims investigations" as the orthotic lab/fabrication expert, I have never previously (or since) been declined access to any lab.
Make of that what you will...
Step 2 is the magic step that answers all our queries. However, the big question for me that has never been answered is this:
Out of the 1000's of ''assessments'' the system has done, how many resulted in the outcome '' no orthoses needed''?
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''The bottom line is too many people prescribe devices who haven't got the faintest idea of what they are doing. There are certain unscrupulous labs supporting this. There are too many people in it for the money.'' paraphrasing Simon Spooner
Yes, curious isn't it?...no volumetric cast needed...perhaps that is the guarded secret? It's like making mens' suits from a photograph!
I just received this site from one of my insurance contacts. http://www.ourfootdoctor.com
I can't speak for those from other countries, however, I am quite certain that most Canadian podiatrists would be unable (and unwilling) to make a diagnosis over the phone and receive a "patient-fabricated" foam box impression in order to process a claim.
Are the USA Pods OK with these guys?
Over and above whether their products work, whether their marketing is appropriate or whether they allow facility tours, none of which I plan to comment on here, I have another pertinent point for anyone planning to purchase this system.
The chiropractor in the room next door to mine has one of these Gaitscans. It's been out of action for almost six months and during this time, despite TOG sending her bills, the unit remains untouched by their technicians, rendering her not only unable to use their products, but probably significantly out of pocket on her initial investment. Glad it wasn't me.
I don't, nor believe that it is sensible, to use the TOG approach to orthoses manufacture. I do, however, own one of their GaitScan systems in my practice, and I have used it routinely during my work-up for foot orthoses for the past 3 years.
I still cast my orthoses and use a reliable podiatric lab which produces consistent, reliable results, - but the qualitative information from the TOG pressure mat is very useful, quite cost-effective (for non-research, clinical purposes) and occasionally throws up surprising results which can and do alter my prescription approach, particularly for the neuropathic foot. It's main purpose in my practice though is a patient education tool. I suspect it makes an impact on compliance when patients can "see" what the mechanical issues are with their foot function (eg pre-ulcerative lesions etc).
Don't get me wrong, I agree with all of the sentiments previously - but I thought I would at least put some balance into the debate with respect to the gait analysis system itself. Yes - good clinical skills will tell you 99% of this information as well, but I think it does have a place in some environments.
[quote] I don't, nor believe that it is sensible, to use the TOG approach to orthoses manufacture. I do, however, own one of their GaitScan systems in my practice, and I have used it routinely during my work-up for foot orthoses for the past 3 years. [quote]
I remember a few years ago when this system was pitched to me I thought of doing just what you have done.
The machinery looked great, and the price was reasonable. As a stand alone purchase I did consider it... but I wouldn't touch their product with a barge pole.
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Craig Tanner
Podiatrist ASPETAR-
Qatar Orthopaedic and Sports Medicine Hospital
Doha
QATAR http://www.aspetar.com/
I did consider it... but I wouldn't touch their product with a barge pole.
What particular concerns did you have with the product (ie the force platform and software), as opposed to the company in general?
A few other podiatrists that I know of who have it have been quite satisfied with its performance (though none of them that I know of use it for TOG orthoses).
Sorry... I was referring to their orthoses.
I had no problem with the pressure scanner- I felt as a unit the price was reasonable and may have added something to a clinical examination.
As for their method of constructing on orthosis from the scan... well thats another thing. I am sure there are many on this site that echo my sentiments.
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Craig Tanner
Podiatrist ASPETAR-
Qatar Orthopaedic and Sports Medicine Hospital
Doha
QATAR http://www.aspetar.com/
I dont own a pressure mapping product. Thats a disclaimer.
I do believe that the pressure mapping technology in 'certain' systems is proprietary technology developed by RS-Scan in Belgium.
So, I would use the original companies product as it's designed as a pressure mapping tool and not as the 'front end' of an 'magic custom orthotic maker'.
The feedback I get on their product is excellent. www.rsscan.com
Again, I am not a customer of this company and have no connection with them at all but am familiar with their products. I am a potential customer though.
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''The bottom line is too many people prescribe devices who haven't got the faintest idea of what they are doing. There are certain unscrupulous labs supporting this. There are too many people in it for the money.'' paraphrasing Simon Spooner
I have the TOG system and it makes pretty pictures, these are sometimes useful to observe weight transfer throught the foot dynamically. I have tried their devices, as I was interested to see how they made 2D images into 3D devices. My experience with the devices was not great. Given the opporunity to purchase again, I would use the RS-Scan system. It is the same system, a bit cheaper and no hype to produce devices.
I hope this is helpful
Regards,
Brenton
The Boss Physio showed me a letter this morning that she received last week from another physio who practices not too far away. The letter was accompanied by a multitude of brochures and pricing lists etc marketing this physio practice and their TOG Orthotics. The letter was basically requesting referrals from other physios for TOG Orthotics, and he was cheeky enough to address the letter to the practice by dropping "Podiatry" from "Paddington Physiotherapy and Podiatry".
Quote:
About six months ago I started looking into orthotics to add an extra element to my physiotherapy practice. Initially I was looking into suitable podiatrists to refer my patients onto, who also offered a range of good quality orthotics. What I found is that a lot of podiatrists are producing rigid orthotics based on static foot mouldings. My experiences are that these types of orthotics often lack flexibility and versatility. Some podiatrist however, have begun using various foot scanning techniques to produce their orthotics. However, most of these foot scanning techniques were again static testing techniques which involved the patient standing on a basic flatbed scanner and a scan being taken of the foot. This technique of developing orthotics is also quite limited. Although it reduces some of the subjectivity involved in taking a mould of the foot, the orthotic is again based on a static image of the patients foot.
He continues for some time after this about the benefits of TOG Gaitscan, the letter absolutely reeks of snake oil... :(
I just can't believe that an Allied Health Professional can speak so negatively of another Allied Health Profession. What happened to the multi-disciplinary approach that we were taught at uni?
I have had 6 ex-TOG 'patients' in this week alone and one in tomorrow. I <3 TOG. So, in my case, money walks.
Keep fighting the fight.
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''The bottom line is too many people prescribe devices who haven't got the faintest idea of what they are doing. There are certain unscrupulous labs supporting this. There are too many people in it for the money.'' paraphrasing Simon Spooner
Thanks for that... you are very right... I just feel sorry for the patients who are being talked into buying these devices... :( Also I wonder how much time this guy actually spent "looking into suitable podiatrists to refer patients onto", considering he is located in Brisbane city where there is a high saturation of pods in a small radius. I can easily think of several Pod colleagues in the city and surrounds who are very successful in producing effective functional orthoses
PNC Equity Partners announced today the acquisition of the custom orthotics business of Langer, Inc., located in Deer Park, N.Y., as the first add-on acquisition to its recent investment in The Orthotic Group, Inc.
Langer has often been credited with creating the prescription foot orthotic industry and has played an integral role in the applied science of podiatric biomechanics. Senior debt was provided by Bank of Montreal.
“Langer’s brand is very well known within the North American podiatric community. Langer’s loyal and longstanding customer base made it a unique acquisition opportunity,” said Jonathan Lewis, vice president of PNC Equity Partners.
PNC Equity Partners announced last month the acquisition of The Orthotic Group (TOG), a leading manufacturer and distributor of custom prescription orthotics, orthotic footwear, and gait analysis equipment to health care professionals. Headquartered in Markham, Ontario, TOG’s business model focuses on serving the chiropractic, podiatric, and rehabilitation markets in North America, Europe, and Australia.
“We like the fundamentals of the custom orthotics business and intend to continue to seek additional acquisitions that complement our current platform,” said Jack Glover, partner of PNC Equity Partners.
“Langer’s unique manufacturing capabilities will strongly complement those of The Orthotic Group and create a breadth of products that is unmatched in the industry,” said Bruce Marrison, chief executive officer of The Orthotic Group.
PNC Equity Partners (www.pncequity.com) invests in companies operating in micro-marketsTM, making private equity investments of $10 million to $30 million in leveraged buyouts, recapitalizations and large minority financings of middle market companies with enterprise values between $25 million and $150 million across a variety of industry sectors.
I met the TOG rep @ PFOLA in 2007. He afforded me a nifty pair of their inserts one week after scanning me.
He did not examine me or ask any questions regarding my history/pathology and just scanned me right off. Considering my flexible cavus foot their high medial arch device with no posting/skiving, shallow heel cup and lack of attention to the forefoot rendered the device useless and uncomfortable after 30 mins with dramatic medial arch irritation. Also their top cover was separating from the heel cup after that wear time. Craftsmanship....
I understand that they purchased Foot Levelers but I haven't confirmed that.
Nice try TOG. I now use them to test out my heat guns.
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"If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance." - Orville Wright
Reproduced word for word, spelling mistake for spelling mistake. Any comments? Anyone ever hear of the eminent speaker?
Rather than comment, I for one simply propose a question:
How in the .... does one translate pressure into altitude when using a pressure based system in a non-contact region? If I can't get a quantifiable answer other than the word algorithm then why would I want to hear anyone speak about it? Okay, I lied, that was 2 questions.
Interesting following the TOG thread.I have one for 5 years. I carry out my own biomechanical assessment and then 'Gaitscan'. I know some who use the Gaitscan with limited knowledge of biomechanics, and this bothers me ( Ok I dont lose sleep easily), because sometimes I know the scan result, I get, could not be right based on my assessment. For example, the degree of pronation. Sure enough when I repeat, the result comes up more like I expected. But I sometimes cannot help wondering how much it matters for the 'fabricators' (mm.. just realised that word is interesting). ANYWAYS! I have to say, sheepishly, that I get the most amazingly positive feedback. Living in rural west of Ireland I am fairly likely to bump into at least 70% of my clients at some stage, so I am careful about trying to get it right (apart from the fact I consider myself a person of integrity). Some of you have commented on easy to wear V greater correction. Easy to wear increases compliance of course, and maybe that is a factor.
This is my first post although I am reg. for past year. I really enjoy following the threads and feel guilty for not throwing in my 'tupence worth' And sure you do deserve a drink, although its not something we do alot around here.
"Seek not fame nor wealth but the endless joy of possibilities"
Interesting following the TOG thread.I have one for 5 years. I carry out my own biomechanical assessment and then 'Gaitscan'. I know some who use the Gaitscan with limited knowledge of biomechanics, and this bothers me ( Ok I dont lose sleep easily), because sometimes I know the scan result, I get, could not be right based on my assessment. For example, the degree of pronation. Sure enough when I repeat, the result comes up more like I expected. But I sometimes cannot help wondering how much it matters for the 'fabricators' (mm.. just realised that word is interesting). ANYWAYS! I have to say, sheepishly, that I get the most amazingly positive feedback.
Odds are, you'd be just a tad more correct if you used the term, "Prefabricators". That you can obtain good results using a pressure mapping system suggests that at least your side of the equation is solid or that you're conservative in your corrections. I've worked with pressure mapping systems before for one of my customers and saw were there was information that could be derived, such as weight distribution and evidence of supination or pronation, but never enough information to provide something that would warrant use in making a truly custom orthotic. Profile information is probably weaker than a page scanner, because at least a page scanner references dpi, rather than 10ths of an inch or millimeters. It would be really interesting to see a pressure pad, however, that had enough room to walk on, either as a long flat pad or as a treadmill. It's probably too costly a venture, but there could be a real use there.
yes, I am selective in prescribing, and yes no doubt 'lab. discretion' is conservative. I have thought about the theory of a longer mat, no doubt would be only viable for research facilities. besides it would probably test the sense of humour of my clients if I asked them to carry on through the door, into the street, from my little sugery
not been in here for a while but i see the same story popong up again and again
i only have one question as opposed to joejareds' two
How exactly can you create an acurate 3 dimensional device froma 2 dimensional scan?
That question is a simple mathematical equation. The intersection of a 3 dimensional line and a plane. Yes, it is that simple, once one knows the apex height of the camera and location and angle of the bar laser relative to the camera.
TOG gait scan
Linear Mode
