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You probably will have to sign up with the NYTs to view it.
I wondered what this group thought about what McDougall said regarding: why barefoot running reduced his injuries and his thoughts on the structure of running shoes.
You probably will have to sign up with the NYTs to view it.
I wondered what this group thought about what McDougall said regarding: why barefoot running reduced his injuries and his thoughts on the structure of running shoes.
We were created to run barefoot to survive, so we can move camps, can hunt for our food, etc. But that was before concrete got invented and we started to run for fitness, recreation and competition rather than survival (but given the obesity epidemic we may need to run for survival in the near future!). Because of the invention of concrete, we needed another invention – the running shoe.
Running barefoot comes in two forms. Those that do it in moderation as part of a balanced running program and those that use it as a philosophy that underpins their running. It is this later group I have a problem with. They are like religious zealots that are fanatical about it. They use nonsensical non-scientific mumbo jumbo to support what they do. They use any piece of evidence that is negative about running shoes as “proof” that barefoot running is better. They grasp at straws to misrepresent other research and dismiss any anti-barefoot research. They claim there is research for it, but when you look at the research, it does not support it - they misrepresent what the research is showing (...and even when you point that out to them, they continue to claim it supports them).
At the end of the day, there is not one piece of evidence that shows barefoot is even ideal, let alone beneficial. Yet do an internet search for barefoot running and look at the extraordinary range of claims being made for the benefits of it. HOWEVER, there is no evidence that it is not beneficial either. Yet the fanatical supporters of barefoot running quote a wide range of research to support their cause. When I read the reference list for the claims, not one piece of the research says what they claim it says. Trying to discuss rationally with these people is like trying to argue a religion – you never going to win that argument.
They also like to be dismissive of claims by Podiatrists that running barefoot is not good as Podiatrists have a vested interest in foot orthotics. That is just silly nonsense. Podiatrists will, generally, always be motivated by what is best for the patient and if the evidence says that barefoot running is beneficial, then they will be recommending it. There are even Podiatrists who are barefoot runners! I love the way the fanatics claims that Podiatrists are anti-barefoot running because of the orthotic $. They need to come up with some better evidence and data than that silly argument.
There have been some very balanced discussions on Podiatry Arena on barefoot running; certainly more balanced that the fanatism and zealotry seen on some running forums to do with barefoot running.
I not opposed to barefoot running; it is just I want good evidence to guide me as to what runners should and should not be doing it; it probably should be done in moderation as part of a balanced running program; and the zealots need to get over it
__________________ Craig Payne
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________ Follow me on Twitter | Run Junkie God put me on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things - right now I am so far behind, I will never die.
Thank you for your very thorough and well expressed response. I was struck by the fact that he stated he essentially changed his gait to run barefoot and as I watched him run on the video he did in fact appear light on his feet as they impacted to the ground. I live around a lake and watch runners circle it all the time and I am always struck by the differences in how people land, swing and transfer their weight as they propel themselves along.
Good coments CP. I was looking over a barefoot running website recently and I could not believe that the actually beleived what they were writing!
They were quoting references and research that even I know that what the research showed was not what they were claiming.
There were claims that barefoot running promoted improved biomechanics, yet my understanding of the research was just comparing running barefoot to shod running, but did not show that one was better than the other.
The love quoting the recent research we have discussed here about the lack of evidence to support running shoe prescriptions. What I do not understand is what has that research got to do with barefoot running being beneficial or not?
So I do agree with the comment:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Payne
They are like religious zealots that are fanatical about it. They use nonsensical non-scientific mumbo jumbo to support what they do. They use any piece of evidence that is negative about running shoes as “proof” that barefoot running is better. They grasp at straws to misrepresent other research and dismiss any anti-barefoot research. They claim there is research for it, but when you look at the research, it does not support it - they misrepresent what the research is showing (...and even when you point that out to them, they continue to claim it supports them).
At the end of the day, there is not one piece of evidence that shows barefoot is even ideal, let alone beneficial. Yet do an internet search for barefoot running and look at the extraordinary range of claims being made for the benefits of it. HOWEVER, there is no evidence that it is not beneficial either. Yet the fanatical supporters of barefoot running quote a wide range of research to support their cause. When I read the reference list for the claims, not one piece of the research says what they claim it says. Trying to discuss rationally with these people is like trying to argue a religion – you never going to win that argument.
Haven't we come across a lot of snake oil salesmen around here that the same could be said about them!
They trot out the Robbins & Gouw et al work (which was some good research, but the authors editorialised it to make claims about running shoes that their research did not show - the barefoot zealots ignore that and quote the editorialised stuff); the Richards systematic review on running shoes prescription not being evidence based (its not evidence based as no one has done the research! duh? - you right about it having nothing to do with showing anything about being barefoot! - why do the barefoot zealots quote this paper to support their cause?); and the Bruggeman research on the Nike Free improving leg strength (but that was in a shoe, NOT barefoot).
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaVinci
Haven't we come across a lot of snake oil salesmen around here that the same could be said about them!
Its very much like the Root Biomechanics is wrong, so that proves my {Insert theory name} Biomechanics is right type argument we been around here many times before. Root Biomechanics may or may not be wrong, but if it is, that has nothing to do with proving something else is right --- yet we hear that type of argument all the time.
Its the same with the barefoot running promotors. You ask them a question about the research they quoting and point out thats not quite what it showed and you never get a straight answer; they go off on a tangent and not answer the question! (where have we seen that pattern before?)
I will be the first to support barefoot running, but show me some research that stacks up to scrutiny!
__________________ Craig Payne
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________ Follow me on Twitter | Run Junkie God put me on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things - right now I am so far behind, I will never die.
I agree. I have several patients who are barefoot runners and they are fine; but I have also met others who really are zealots and irrational. They really had no understanding of the research that they were quoting.
It is kinda fun to follow. I have come across a couple of running forums where what I wrote above is being discussed. You only have to read the discussion to see how they confirm what I wrote!!!
Some of the arguments they are using against what I wrote really are nonsensical (some criticized my grammar; some asked if I was equally critically of running shoes; some just quoted Richards research on the lack of evidence for running shoes; etc). Notice how NONE actually addressed the issue of barefoot running. It is the same in this Rothbart thread on: Vertical Facial Dimensions Linked to Abnormal Foot Motion. Despite repeated requests of the fanatics to answer the questions, none of them actually did. How many times do we see this pattern?
It is the same with the Pose running technique. The scientific evaluation of the research that they use to support it has been done and shown to be wrong; but what to the fanatical supporters say about that?
I not opposed to barefoot running; it is just the zealotry and the unsubstantiated claims being made.
__________________ Craig Payne
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________ Follow me on Twitter | Run Junkie God put me on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things - right now I am so far behind, I will never die.
They trot out the (cut); the Richards systematic review on running shoes prescription not being evidence based (its not evidence based as no one has done the research! duh? - you right about it having nothing to do with showing anything about being barefoot! - why do the barefoot zealots quote this paper to support their cause?); (cut)
Isn't this the guy that is a barefoot runner and owns a company that sells a barefoot running product?
Isn't this the guy that is a barefoot runner and owns a company that sells a barefoot running product?
Yes, thats right. BUT, in fairness this was declared in the publication.
Personally, I think the writing style and the nature of the way the publication was written clearly shows the author had an agenda; BUT to criticise it for that reason is like playing the man and not the ball. Just like those on the running forums having a go at me and not addressing the issues raised! .... which really only confirms what I wrote (one day they might get it).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel
What do barefoot runners do on a cold day?
Its bloody cold where I am this morning. I went for a run and did not see anyone in barefoot!
__________________ Craig Payne
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________ Follow me on Twitter | Run Junkie God put me on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things - right now I am so far behind, I will never die.
I was struck by the fact that he stated he essentially changed his gait to run barefoot and as I watched him run on the video he did in fact appear light on his feet as they impacted to the ground.
Sorry, I should have responded sooner to this. Don't forget that there is NO evidence that high impact is actually a risk factor for injury. Surprisingly, no study has shown that those who impact the ground harder are at any increased risk for an injury. The barefooters like to make claims that barefoot running reduces impact and therefore injuries; well, does that really matter if impact is not a problem?
There are other ways to "float" over the ground and "appear light" on the feet than barefoot running. Chi running encourages the same sort of thing, but they do it in shoes (but, they also have their nonsensical gurus who make all sorts of claims for research!)
__________________ Craig Payne
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________ Follow me on Twitter | Run Junkie God put me on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things - right now I am so far behind, I will never die.
Isn't this the guy that is a barefoot runner and owns a company that sells a barefoot running product?
Am i the only one that found this really funny? Barefoot running products..
Like the emporers new running trainers?? (hehehe)
This guy must be an amazing salesman..
Seriously though... I know there is alot of people that swear by the Pose and Chi and barefoot running styles, but could the benefit and injury reduction they reportedly receive be due to the fact they are actually concentrating on maintaining a good running posture, and maybe undergoing an exercise programme outside of their normal running designed to improve runing posture, where before they might have been stomping about with really poor technique?
Hi all
i too have not long finished with this book and i thought it was on a couple of levels. on the one hand it was quite a nice wee story about the indians and their need/love of running, and i think that is an important message to some runners that concentrate too much on tempo runs, timing and lactate threshold or whatever- you started running because you enjoyed it so start enjoying it again.
then there is the the other level of the blatant agenda against running shoe companies (Nike in particular) with them being responsible for every injury incurred by runners. if he could i'm sure he would have blamed running shoe companies for the war in iraq, the economic crisis and the fact that Scotland are not going to the world cup 2010!
However i have been trying it for maybe 20-30 mins once a week and i agree with Sam in the last post. my running has probably became more efficient but its because my posture has improved and it becomes less important whether i have shoes on or not ( although gastroc/soleus burn big time initially!). its an interesting issue though but as Craig says, some of these guys are blinkered its difficult to have a balanced debate about it.
cheers
JB
then there is the the other level of the blatant agenda against running shoe companies (Nike in particular) with them being responsible for every injury incurred by runners. if he could i'm sure he would have blamed running shoe companies for the war in iraq, the economic crisis and the fact that Scotland are not going to the world cup 2010!
Yes, he ignores that there is not one shred of evidence that running shoes cause injuries! All the evidence he claims to show that does not show that. I just can not understand how they can be so blind when reading what they call as evidence. This book is exactly what I am talking about!
I will reiterate it again as I see myself being misquoted in some running forums ... I will even type it slowly so they get it: I am not opposed to barefoot running. I am just opposed to the bull**** that the zealots use to promote it with.
__________________ Craig Payne
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________ Follow me on Twitter | Run Junkie God put me on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things - right now I am so far behind, I will never die.
I agree with Craig that as part of a balanced training program it can be quite beneficial. The big problems that seem to arise from these people preaching their ideas is that those amateur runners that aren't yet fit/strong/trained enough to maintain proper running posture/technique are going to get considerable overuse injuries elsewhere in their lower limbs as they try and change gait and recruit wrong muscle groups at the wrong time. Keeps business promising though...
We have had quite a few discussions before here on Podiatry Arena on the question of barefoot running. I actually think it is good idea for runners to try running barefoot on occasion to see what it feels like. However, I will seldom recommend barefoot running to my patients for the simple reason that I don't want to be responsible for any injuries, such as puncture wounds, plantar abrasions and contusions and bee stings, caused by the barefoot running. These are not insignificant risks of injury to the average person that normally wears shoes and does not normally walk outside barefoot.
From my own occasional personal experience of running barefoot during my collegiate cross country and track years, doing one mile intervals on a grassy field at about 5:10 mile pace, the biggest change I noted with running barefoot was that I simply was faster, presumably due to the reduced mass on my feet. Barefoot running for me generally amounted to a 5 second reduction in my mile interval time (i.e. instead of a 5:10 mile I would run a 5:05 mile) for an equivalent perceived exertion level. I never ran a race barefoot since my feet were not tough enough to run over other surfaces other than grass without hurting my feet, but barefoot running was definitely faster than running in shoes for me while on that surface.
Therefore, there is no problem with running barefoot, if people want to give it a try, then I don't have a problem with it. However, as far as me actually recommending it as the preferred method of running as a medical professional to my patients, I think it would be unethical for me to do so since the vast majority of my patients would be more likely to become injured as a result or running barefoot.
__________________
Sincerely,
Kevin
**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College
__________________ Craig Payne
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________ Follow me on Twitter | Run Junkie God put me on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things - right now I am so far behind, I will never die.
Kevin
can i just ask ( in a non threatning way!) on what do you base the assertion that everyone who you recommend barefoot running to will get injured. assuming its as part of a wider training program and they dont have any glaring biomechanical anomolies, would they not be ok if they didnt overdo it?
i have to confess i have never recommended it to a patient for fear i might be accused of injuring them, however i have no problems giving insoles/orthoses which arguable could also cause problems. are orthoses more of a known unknown and barefoot running an unknown unknown ( as donald rumsfeld would say
cheers
JB
Kevin
can i just ask ( in a non threatning way!) on what do you base the assertion that everyone who you recommend barefoot running to will get injured. assuming its as part of a wider training program and they dont have any glaring biomechanical anomolies, would they not be ok if they didnt overdo it?
i have to confess i have never recommended it to a patient for fear i might be accused of injuring them, however i have no problems giving insoles/orthoses which arguable could also cause problems. are orthoses more of a known unknown and barefoot running an unknown unknown ( as donald rumsfeld would say
cheers
JB
JB:
I don't recommend barefoot running to novice runners since I believe there is too much risk of injury. However, if when discussing training protocols with more experienced and competetive runners they ask me about barefoot running I tell them they should try it on occasion to see how it works for them. I don't find that the foot orthoses I make normally cause new injuries but all my patients are pre-warned that this event could happen and they should discontinue using them, until they can contact me, if such an event happens.
I try to keep an open mind with all patients, tailoring my traning, shoe and orthosis recommendations depending on their level of running experience and racing times. It helps that I am a former competitive distance runner and it greatly helps me in discussing such issues that only 1-2% of my runner-patients have run as much as I have in my lifetime. I ran my first marathon at age 17.....that was 35 years ago. I estimate I have run over 55,000 miles during my lifetime. This type of experience gives the sports podiatrist a huge advantage over the non-runner clinician to have the knowledge to allow their runner-patients to continue to train with a minimum of mental anquish and time away from their running and racing.
__________________
Sincerely,
Kevin
**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College
thanks for replying Kevin
i've been trying it out recently just to give me an idea of what it should feel like in the event of patients asking me and i've got to say i dont think i can do it much longer. my gastroc/soleus are screaming "stop". i'm looking forward to being able to walk downstairs in comfort..
having said that i do feel my style/posture has improved but, as i have said before, i dont need to be shoeless for that to happen.
JB
Barefoot running may not be ideal for everyone, but I have seen way too many runners in minimalist style shoes (not the nike free, but like fivefingers, etc) that have overcome rashes of injuries that they constantly got while using running shoes. There is a plethora of true research out there that proves barefoot/appropriate minimalist running is beneficial and strengthening to the runner (even on concrete). I will be posting some shortly on my blog. I advocate the minimalist movement and those that want to take it further to barefoot running then more power to them. It is not for everyone to run barefoot (the cold has its own share of issues ), but I believe the majority of us are mis diagnosed and given inappropriate shoes with way too much support and stability that our feet AND joints do not need!
Jeremy www.barefoot-running dot com
twitter dot com/barefootrun
bit.ly/2qGCm
Last edited by Admin : 11th December 2009 at 07:38 PM.
Reason: removed check4spam message
Barefoot running has become an increasing trend, and a possible alternative or training adjunct to running with shoes. While anecdotal evidence and testimonials proliferate on the Internet and in the media about the possible health benefits of barefoot running, research has not yet adequately shed light on the immediate and long term effects of this practice.
Barefoot running has been touted as improving strength and balance, while promoting a more natural running style. However, risks of barefoot running include a lack of protection--which may lead to injuries such as puncture wounds--and increased stress on the lower extremities. Currently, inconclusive scientific research has been conducted regarding the benefits and/or risks of barefoot running.
The American Podiatric Medical Association, along with the American Academy of Podiatric Sports Medicine, encourages the public to consult a podiatrist with a strong background in sports medicine to make an informed decision on all aspects of their running and training programs.
My debated Barefoot Ken Bob on barefoot running a few weeks ago with Amby Burfoot moderating. Should be published in next month's Runner's World magazine.
__________________
Sincerely,
Kevin
**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College
My debated Barefoot Ken Bob on barefoot running a few weeks ago with Amby Burfoot moderating. Should be published in next month's Runner's World magazine.
Amby is a former great marathoner that I followed in my youthful running years and has been editor of Runner's World for 31 years. He won the 1968 Boston Marathon while still a senior in college, has a personal best of 2:14 in the marathon, and was former roommate of Bill Rodgers (one of the best US marathoners of all time and four time winner of the Boston Marathon). Now he's just an old runner like myself, but 10 years my senior.
__________________
Sincerely,
Kevin
**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College
anyone who regularly reads runners world should recognise Ambys name. the articles he did were always interesting and worth reading, didnt realise he was quite so fast though!
look forward to the magazine coming out.
merry christmas everyone. and if your not in the festive mood yet, listen to Bob Dylan singing ' must be santa'. its sure to do the trick. ( and all proceeds go to charity)
JB
You probably will have to sign up with the NYTs to view it.
I wondered what this group thought about what McDougall said regarding: why barefoot running reduced his injuries and his thoughts on the structure of running shoes.
Take a look at he work Dr Craig Richard (Australia) is doing. http://barefootrunningshoe.blogspot.com/
Also have a read about Newton, Chi and Pose running to get some idea of what is happening out there. I have found looking at all these and pulling the bits with good biomechanical priciple will allow you to help you give advice to your patients. Remember what we have been telling our patients for years about footwear may be based on paradigms and marketing.
Hi, I would like to add some purely personal anecdotal observation to this thread. I recently did some research on the vibram fivefinger shoes after a chiro asked me my opinion of them. I grew up as a barefoot child. The idea appealed to me. I got some to try about a month ago. They took a little getting used to but there was that feeling of relief even though a bit of foot soreness initially. My leg muscles work far more efficiently (one effect is that I am cycling up hills way more easily!) and this morning I felt like going for a jog. I am NOT in any way shape or form a runner. I am overweight and unfit. Yet I jogged easily 3km on a dirt path, at a slow pace I grant you. It is an interesting sensation feeling your knees doing the shock absorption while you run.
My previous choice of shoe was a Brooks Ariel. Rarely wore anything else.
Now when I put them on it just feels wrong. I can feel my ankles in particular are all locked up and I want my heel to be on the ground not up on a cushioned wedge. I miss the feedback from the ground.
A question I have always asked my clients when they are describing pain symptoms is "Do you have the pain when walking barefoot?" Approx 70% of the time the answer is 'no'. My assumptions as to why - there is an inherent stability for many people barefoot, you move slower when barefoot than shod, unstable shoes are not transferring their instability to the gait pattern.
Shoes allow us to move faster than we would otherwise. Add a treadmill into the equation and you have a recipe for over use injuries. Would anyone ever walk barefoot at 7km per hour for 45mins up an incline? Or jog for an hour at 10km per hour? Unlikely. Therefore I question whether the body is actually designed to cope with this day in day out.
Yes, the virbrams look funny. One of my clients said it looked like i had gorilla feet. But I have come to the conclusion long ago that function is way more important than fashion. :)
Barefoot running
Re: Barefoot running
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