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I've read with interest all of the Arena's previous posts about Prof Rothbart...
However I have a patient who claims much improvement to her scoliosis and lumar pain after using Healthmarque (Australia) Proprioceptive insoles (which are new to me!)
"The Healthmarque orthotic is a thin combination of rubber and suede containing pockets that can be filled with a crumbled synthetic rubber designed to stimulate but not support selected plantar muscles to produce a postural correction. We believe hard supporting orthotics will weaken the arches by taking over their muscular function. "
Has anyone comes across these claims? (there is no discussion on the arena yet, but the healthmarque site boasts many 'practitioners' worldwide. The clinician appears to be a medical doctor - a Dr Butterworth.
Does anyone have any experience of these proprioceptive orthotics? And the underpinning theory?
Wishing you all well for 2010,
__________________
Our clinics grow by feet daily
Last edited by Kahuna : 30th December 2009 at 07:43 PM.
Reason: typo
I prefer Spikethotics TM to proprioceptive orthotics. For your own pair of Spikethotics TM, you may send your check for $500.00 USD to:
Spikethotic Enterprises
107 Scripps Drive, Suite 200
Sacramento, CA 95825
Happy New Year Everyone!!
__________________
Sincerely,
Kevin
**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College
I've read with interest all of the Arena's previous posts about Prof Rothbart...
However I have a patient who claims much improvement to her scoliosis and lumar pain after using Healthmarque (Australia) Proprioceptive insoles (which are new to me!)
"The Healthmarque orthotic is a thin combination of rubber and suede containing pockets that can be filled with a crumbled synthetic rubber designed to stimulate but not support selected plantar muscles to produce a postural correction. We believe hard supporting orthotics will weaken the arches by taking over their muscular function. "
Has anyone comes across these claims? (there is no discussion on the arena yet, but the healthmarque site boasts many 'practitioners' worldwide. The clinician appears to be a medical doctor - a Dr Butterworth.
Does anyone have any experience of these proprioceptive orthotics? And the underpinning theory?
"The story so far: As usual, Ginger and I are engaged on our quest to find out what the hell is going on and save humanity from my nemesis, some bastard who is presumably responsible."
Riddle me this .... if weak arch muscles lead to a high arch foot (as in the 'intrinsic minus foot' in diabetic neuropathy and the cavus foot in CMT), surely that means strengthening the arch muscles will casue the arch to lower and that has to be a bad thing
__________________
Craig Payne
Department of Podiatry
La Trobe University
Melbourne, Australia http://www.latrobe.edu.au/podiatry
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________ God put me on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things - right now I am so far behind, I will never die.
The views expressed above are those of the author and not that of La Trobe University This is where I am, where are you?
Ah but as gp s are always telling patients, picking up a pencil with your toes strengthens the plantar fascia doesn't it.
Since when has ignorance stood in the way of medical marketing? We live in a Market economy. The truth does not stand a chance because it's less lucrative than the lies!
It would be nice if just ONE of these guys looked up what proprioception and exteroception actually MEAN before they leap on the incorrectly named bandwagon though! At least then it would be correctly named BS.
I fear for the future of biomechanics, I truly do.
"The story so far: As usual, Ginger and I are engaged on our quest to find out what the hell is going on and save humanity from my nemesis, some bastard who is presumably responsible."
"Müller, G., Drerup, B., Osada, N., & Wetz, H. H. 2006, "The influence of proprioceptive insoles Bourdiol on the sagittal curvature and inclination of the trunk", Der Orthopäde, vol. 35, no. 11, pp. 1131-1136.
Ref ID: 443
Abstract: Proprioceptive insoles rely on the concept of Réné-Jaques Bourdiol, a French neurologist. The aim is to modulate plantar surface sensibility and to influence posture and statics of patients: it is hypothesized that the effect of modified afferent sensory input through proprioceptive stimulation of terminal muscle chains will have either a relaxing or stimulating effect on the whole body, which may be realized by affecting the posture. Small pads with a thickness of typically 1-3 mm are embedded into the insole to provide a specific stimulation. In fitting the insoles selectively to the individual patient the effect of the insoles on the trunk posture is taken as a feedback. This study investigates the influence of proprioceptive insoles on the sagittal curve in 20 selected patients. The protocol used a repeated measures research design. The measures of the sagittal curve were obtained using raster stereography. The four different conditions were: (1) barefoot, (2) convenient shoes without the insoles, (3) the same shoes with a placebo insole, and (4) the same shoes with neurological insoles. Evaluation of raster stereographs provided the kyphotic angle between T4 and T12 and lordotic angle between T12 and S1. Statistical evaluation was performed with the t- test for paired measurements. No significant differences were found in the sagittal profile. Only trunk inclination in normal posture was found to yield a significant difference (0.38 degrees) between placebo and neurological insoles. However, no clear statement on the efficiency of neurological insoles can be made."
Full respect to them for having the guts to do a study and publish in spite of the results! 0.38 degrees is not a lot, but it's more than none. Will have to have a look at that one! Thanks for the ref.
"The story so far: As usual, Ginger and I are engaged on our quest to find out what the hell is going on and save humanity from my nemesis, some bastard who is presumably responsible."
...and in terms of Healthmarque's "proprioceptive orthotics", I have found that Dr Ed Butterworth MBChB is a member of podiatry arena aka "HealthMarque".
A post of his in 2007 reads.........
________________________________________
Re: hi
Please see my website www.healthmarque.com.au I have produced a remote learning kit. The technique uses AK muscle testing to determine how to make the orthotics. Please contact me if you wish.
Dr Butterworth
________________________________________
So, healthmarque links their proprioceptive insoles to applied kinesiology techniques.
"No significant differences were found in the sagittal profile. Only trunk inclination in normal posture was found to yield a significant difference (0.38 degrees) between placebo and neurological insoles. However, no clear statement on the efficiency of neurological insoles can be made."
What .38 degrees change in trunk inclination? What on earth is trunk inclination?
I see a fair number of patients with scoliosis and if it is structural and the patient is skeletally mature and you claim to change that alignment with AK and/or proprioceptive insoles you should be flogged with a Rothbart's Insole until you become sensible.
Applied Kinesiology is one of those practices that makes the bile rise high in my throat, fortunately stifling a scream. When I succumb please line my coffin with a proprioceptive lining because only then will I truly receive the neurological benefit of proprioceptive input via gamma motor neurons!
__________________
"If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance." - Orville Wright
I am Dr Edward Butterworth of Healthmarque and I note your use of the word "snake oil" relating to my orthotics. The inference is that I am a snake oil salesman. Please have the courage of your conviction to call me that on this Arena. Naturally this will be followed libel defamation suite.
I am Dr Edward Butterworth of Healthmarque and I note your use of the word "snake oil" relating to my orthotics. The inference is that I am a snake oil salesman. Please have the courage of your conviction to call me that on this Arena. Naturally this will be followed libel defamation suite.
Ed:
Since you are now a member of Podiatry Arena, please tell us how you think your orthoses work.
__________________
Sincerely,
Kevin
**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College
No courage of conviction required - I know nothing of you or your product and was merely offering my personal opinion (as we are all fully entitled to do on a forum such as this) regarding Kahuna's original post. As you can clearly see from my post which you quote above I make no direct inference that you are a snake oil salesman.
Unfortunately we have had experiences on the Arena before of individuals with financial interests in a product behave in a similar way. As you are on here Edward - instead of taking things personally, being defensive and threatening legal action, why do you not take some time to answer some of our questions/concerns and provide us with some of the evidence behind your product (and maybe prove us wrong regarding our opinions?)
Lets start with these two:
(1) How does your product 'stimulate but not support selected plantar muscles to produce a postural correction'?
(2) What evidence do you have to support your statement: 'We believe hard supporting orthotics will weaken the arches by taking over their muscular function'
Since you are now a member of Podiatry Arena, please tell us how you think your orthoses work.
I have been a member for a couple of years and have followed the threads sporadically. I am somewhat concerned about the pettiness of some of the posted threads. I came across the enquiry about me by chance and having read the negative responses I have decided to stick my head up.. A brief explanation as to how I "think" my orthotics work can be found on my website www.healthmarque.com.au. I am preparing a more in depth article for the Arena.
I know Dr Fusco as I used her orthotics originally with good results. However my new knowledge concerning the piezo-electric of collagen caused me to re-design the orthotics that I now promote. I have spoken several times to Prof Rothbart and have read Dr Bourdiol's book which is in French. In Europe there is a thriving profession known as Posturology where health professionals of all persuasions co-operate amicably and with respect other colleagues' knowledge in the study of holistic medicine. Sadly this is not the case in Anglophone medicine Hope this helps. Ed Butterworth
"No significant differences were found in the sagittal profile. Only trunk inclination in normal posture was found to yield a significant difference (0.38 degrees) between placebo and neurological insoles. However, no clear statement on the efficiency of neurological insoles can be made."
What .38 degrees change in trunk inclination? What on earth is trunk inclination?
I see a fair number of patients with scoliosis and if it is structural and the patient is skeletally mature and you claim to change that alignment with AK and/or proprioceptive insoles you should be flogged with a Rothbart's Insole until you become sensible.
Applied Kinesiology is one of those practices that makes the bile rise high in my throat, fortunately stifling a scream. When I succumb please line my coffin with a proprioceptive lining because only then will I truly receive the neurological benefit of proprioceptive input via gamma motor neurons!
The culture of this arena seems to spawn smart alec responses. As a chiropractor I would have thought that you would have a sympathetic attitude to AK as the founder was one of yours. It works for me. Vertebral bone deformity cannot be treated by our orthotics. We treat the deformity caused by muscle imbalance and we get results and patients should not be denied the benefits through lack of evidence based medicine. Ed
I am Dr Edward Butterworth of Healthmarque and I note your use of the word "snake oil" relating to my orthotics. The inference is that I am a snake oil salesman. Please have the courage of your conviction to call me that on this Arena. Naturally this will be followed libel defamation suite.
Strong words indeed!
Rather than threats of legal action perhaps you would like to explain why and how these insoles are NOT snake oil. Beyond "I beleive" that is. Rather than try to stop people saying what they beleive you could try changing what they beleive.
Because I beleive that these insoles are nothing more than an expensive placebo, much akin to others we have seen. And I find your marketing distasteful.
Perhaps you could start by explaining on what basis you beleive orthotics weaken foot muscles? And evidence? Any science? Or is it just your "hunch".
And for an encore, which planter muscles, when stimulated, improve posture? Specifically. Call it a nostradamas like prediction but I somehow guess you will avoid answering that one. Flexor digi brevis pehaps? Is that the muscle which "supports the arch"
"The story so far: As usual, Ginger and I are engaged on our quest to find out what the hell is going on and save humanity from my nemesis, some bastard who is presumably responsible."
"The story so far: As usual, Ginger and I are engaged on our quest to find out what the hell is going on and save humanity from my nemesis, some bastard who is presumably responsible."
A brief explanation as to how I "think" my orthotics work can be found on my website www.healthmarque.com.au. I am preparing a more in depth article for the Arena.
Ed,
I took a cursory glance at this page of your website and saw near the bottom:
Quote:
Who should wear them?
Almost everybody
That says it all for me...
I wait with excitement your more in depth article for the Arena. Please don't forget to clearly address and answer the questions that have been asked so far (by Kevin, Robert and I). To summarize for you these are:
(1) How do you think your orthoses actually work?
(2) How does your product stimulate but not support selected plantar muscles to produce a postural correction?
(3) Which plantar muscles, when stimulated, improve posture?
(4) How do you believe hard supporting orthotics will weaken the arches by taking over their muscular function?
Slander is the crime of SAYING something untrue that harms a person's reputation. Libel is the crime of PUBLISHING something false that is damaging to person's reputation. Oxford Dictionary. By the way I am English by birth and education. Having read the vituperation contained in the replies so far I am not prepared to continue this discussion unless I can be assured of temperate comment. Ed Butterworth
Slander is the crime of SAYING something untrue that harms a person's reputation. Libel is the crime of PUBLISHING something false that is damaging to person's reputation. Oxford Dictionary. By the way I am English by birth and education. Having read the vituperation contained in the replies so far I am not prepared to continue this discussion unless I can be assured of temperate comment. Ed Butterworth
Nope. You're a little out of date.
Quote:
Mr Justice Eady said that such comments are “contributions to a casual conversation (the analogy sometimes being drawn with people chatting in a bar) which people simply note before moving on; they are often uninhibited, casual and ill thought out.”
This, Mr Justice Eady said, makes them “much more akin to slanders (this cause of action being nowadays relatively rare) than to the usual, more permanent kind of communications found in libel actions.”
Smith v ADVFN & Others [2008] All ER (D) 335 (Jul)
However please don't let anything distract you from the valid questions Ian Highlighted
(1) How do you think your orthoses actually work?
(2) How does your product stimulate but not support selected plantar muscles to produce a postural correction?
(3) Which plantar muscles, when stimulated, improve posture?
(4) How do you believe hard supporting orthotics will weaken the arches by taking over their muscular function?
I can only speak for myself but I will promise that my comment will be temperate.
C'mon, You've taken the trouble to come on the arena to argue your product. Don't you welcome the opportunity to explain the science behind it?
"The story so far: As usual, Ginger and I are engaged on our quest to find out what the hell is going on and save humanity from my nemesis, some bastard who is presumably responsible."
Having read the vituperation contained in the replies so far I am not prepared to continue this discussion unless I can be assured of temperate comment. Ed Butterworth
C'mon Ed - replies have hardly been full of 'bitter and abusive language' (Source: Oxford English Dictionary)
Anyone would think you are looking for any available exit from this conversation in order to avoid the very basic, and un-abusive questions we have asked you (avoidance which I'm sure none of us expected or saw coming at all...). As I already said - behaviour which we have seen before from other individuals including your friend Brian. Perhaps why we made the snake oil suggestion in the first place?
I promise to also be temperate, but only if you promise to answer the questions. You have posted 3 times since the questions were originally posed and still nothing which comes close to an answer. The questions have been re-iterated in at least 2 posts since.
I have been a member for a couple of years and have followed the threads sporadically. I am somewhat concerned about the pettiness of some of the posted threads. I came across the enquiry about me by chance and having read the negative responses I have decided to stick my head up.. A brief explanation as to how I "think" my orthotics work can be found on my website www.healthmarque.com.au. I am preparing a more in depth article for the Arena.I know Dr Fusco as I used her orthotics originally with good results. However my new knowledge concerning the piezo-electric of collagen caused me to re-design the orthotics that I now promote. I have spoken several times to Prof Rothbart and have read Dr Bourdiol's book which is in French. In Europe there is a thriving profession known as Posturology where health professionals of all persuasions co-operate amicably and with respect other colleagues' knowledge in the study of holistic medicine. Sadly this is not the case in Anglophone medicine Hope this helps. Ed Butterworth
Ed see what I´ve highlighted in your response, Would be great to see. With the background ideas and the science to prove what you have produced works and why.I´m realitivly new to the Arena but have found it a great place with people willing to help me and discuss my ideas. I however would expect people to want scientific proof if I made a certain claim. That´s really what people want.
If you look at the laser treatment of fungal nail thread
Laser tx of fungal nails thread
If you read this thread there may have been some strong words between people ideas But if you look at the last few pages you will see that when someone came on line and said this is the scientific review process and this is where we are at they got a lot of thanks and positive responses.
So if you beleive in your product and have the scientific evidence why not come on and show people. You might get yourself a lot of new customers, it will also show a strong conviction in your product.
Hope you come back with something intersting ED
__________________
Michael Weber
The most common thing about common sense is it´s not very common.
I have been a member for a couple of years and have followed the threads sporadically. I am somewhat concerned about the pettiness of some of the posted threads. I came across the enquiry about me by chance and having read the negative responses I have decided to stick my head up.. A brief explanation as to how I "think" my orthotics work can be found on my website www.healthmarque.com.au. I am preparing a more in depth article for the Arena.
I know Dr Fusco as I used her orthotics originally with good results. However my new knowledge concerning the piezo-electric of collagen caused me to re-design the orthotics that I now promote. I have spoken several times to Prof Rothbart and have read Dr Bourdiol's book which is in French. In Europe there is a thriving profession known as Posturology where health professionals of all persuasions co-operate amicably and with respect other colleagues' knowledge in the study of holistic medicine. Sadly this is not the case in Anglophone medicine Hope this helps. Ed Butterworth
Ed:
I think we a fairly open minded group here, as long as you can provide us with a hint of scientific evidence that your insoles do anything more than the thousands of foot orthosis designs that we all make for our patients. If you simply say "My orthoses work since a few patients got better once I gave them orthoses", then you are no better than our friend, Brian Rothbart.
I went on your website and see that you think that the collagen of the body is sending electrical messages around the body via the piezoelectric effect. Here is a segment that I cut from your website:
Quote:
Connective tissues make up the bulk of our bodies and most of this COLLAGEN. Collagen is a liquid crystal, and is a semi-conductor capable of transmitting electrical impulses at rapid speeds. This represents a seperate Body Control that is functionally interconnected with the Brain.
Although there are several types of proprioceptive sensors in the sole of the foot that exert theirinfluence through their connections to the Central Nervous System (CNS) another source of postural information is the generation of electrical charges in the collagen fibres of the plantar muscles. This is the piezo-electrical property of liquid crystals. The collagen responds to footstep pressure causing a piezo-electriacl conversion of mechanical force into electrical communication along the musculo -fascial connective tissue chains mentioned above to modify posture. Thus it can be easily understood how weak or abnormal feel will affect posture and how the Healthmarque orthodics can help.
I see the words, however they make no sense to me. I was an animal physiology major at UC Davis before entering podiatry school, so I am quite familiar with endocrine and neural physiology. However, what you write above looks like pure conjecture that has been fabricated out of thin air with no basis in scientific fact. Please provide references which show that this piezoelectric effect in collagen somehow can transfer neural messages to the central nervous systems of animals.
__________________
Sincerely,
Kevin
**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College
Please provide references which show that this piezoelectric effect in collagen somehow can transfer neural messages to the central nervous systems of animals.
Kevin, this paper seems oft cited:
Lipinski B: "Biological significance of piezoelectricity in relation to ... Medical Hypotheses 1977;3(1):9
If ed can explain what he means, and I hope he will, it could be real science we don't understand.
But it sounds a bit "pseudoscience" to me. Lots of scientific sounding ideas loosely tied together to impress the unsuspecting and uneducated.
Ben Goldacre descibes it well...
[quote]
Quote:
[When you’ve been working with bull**** for as long as I have, you start to spot recurring themes: quacks and the pharmaceutical industry use the exact same tricks to sell their pills, everybody loves a “science bit” – even if it’s wrong – and when people introduce pseudoscience into any explanation, it’s usually because there’s something else they’re trying desperately not to talk about. But my favourite is this: alternative therapists, the media, and the drug industry all conspire to sell us reductionist, bio-medical explanations for problems that might more sensibly and constructively be thought of as social, political, or personal./QUOTE]
but if there IS a coherent explanation then I take it all back. I don't know much about physics but I DO know a little about biomechanics. And I don't know of any plantar muscle which, when stimulated, cures crooked backs!
"The story so far: As usual, Ginger and I are engaged on our quest to find out what the hell is going on and save humanity from my nemesis, some bastard who is presumably responsible."
I don't know much about physics but I DO know a little about biomechanics. And I don't know of any plantar muscle which, when stimulated, cures crooked backs!
Try this: lets say we have a flexor hallucis brevis that is in "spasm", this might result in an increase in plantarflexion moment about the 1st MTPJ, resulting in a functional hallux limitus, now go via sagittal plane theory to get to altered lower back mechanics. Lets say we "stimulate" our flexor hallucis brevis and relieve the "spasm"......
Just playing, Robert.
__________________ Science is the antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition
The whole sagittal plane facilitation -> curing lower back pain (much less correcting a socking great scoliosis) is something I still don't entirely buy into. But that's another thread.
"The story so far: As usual, Ginger and I are engaged on our quest to find out what the hell is going on and save humanity from my nemesis, some bastard who is presumably responsible."
The whole sagittal plane facilitation -> curing lower back pain (much less correcting a socking great scoliosis) is something I still don't entirely buy into. But that's another thread.
Regards
Robert
Now try getting from the foot to the TMJ
__________________ Science is the antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition
Another type of proprioceptive orthotics
Linear Mode
