Home Forums Marketplace Table of Contents Events Member List Site Map Register Mark Forums Read



Welcome to the Podiatry Arena forums, for communication between foot health professionals about podiatry and related topics.

You are currently viewing our podiatry forum as a guest which gives you limited access to view all podiatry discussions and access our other features. By joining our free global community of Podiatrists and other interested foot health care professionals you will have access to post podiatry topics (answer and ask questions), communicate privately with other members (PM), upload content, view attachments, receive a weekly email update of new discussions, earn CPD points and access many other special features. Registered users do not get displayed the advertisments in posted messages. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our global Podiatry community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.


Tags: ,

Do “cushioning” shoes really cushion impacts?

Reply
Submit Thread >  Submit to Digg Submit to Reddit Submit to Furl Submit to Del.icio.us Submit to Google Submit to Yahoo! This Submit to Technorati Submit to StumbleUpon Submit to Spurl Submit to Netscape  < Submit Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 9th September 2007, 05:41 PM
Paulo Silva's Avatar
Paulo Silva Paulo Silva is offline
Senior Member
 
About:
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Lisboa (Portugal)
Posts: 159
Join Date: Apr 2007
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 4
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Default Do “cushioning” shoes really cushion impacts?

Podiatry Arena members do not see these ads
Hello

I'm following the thread What do we mean by 'motion control' in running shoes and I remembered this:

Most athletic shoes companies advertise injury protection through “cushioning.”

But some studies suggest that shoes with cushioning materials fail to absorb impact when humans run and jump, and actually amplify force under certain conditions...

I would like to hear your opinions... on this
__________________
Paulo Silva-MSSF
www.calcadodesportivo.com (Portuguese)
Member of the Society of Shoe Fitters
www.shoefitters-uk.org
My location

Last edited by Admin : 14th September 2007 at 12:25 AM. Reason: added link to other thread
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 9th September 2007, 07:08 PM
Craig Payne's Avatar
Craig Payne Craig Payne is offline
Moderator
Professor of Life, The Universe and Everything
 
About:
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 4,045
Join Date: Aug 2004
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 64
Thanked 614 Times in 420 Posts
Default Re: Do “cushioning” shoes really cushion impacts?

The cynic in me thinks this about cushioning - when the heel hits the ground, the knee flexes; the ankle flexes; the STJ pronates; the CoM drops; -- these are all impact moderating behaviours; and then there is the plantar heel fat pad --> so, the body is pretty good at absorbing shock itself ---- any cushioning in the shoe only has the potential to absorb some of what is left over .... how much is left over? I don't know, but it may not be much.
__________________
Craig Payne
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________
Follow me on Twitter | Run Junkie
God put me on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things - right now I am so far behind, I will never die.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10th September 2007, 03:18 AM
toeslayer's Avatar
toeslayer toeslayer is offline
Podiatry Arena Veteran
 
About:
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Perth WA
Posts: 949
Join Date: May 2007
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 8
Thanked 92 Times in 78 Posts
Default Re: Do “cushioning” shoes really cushion impacts?

Paulo

>Most athletic shoes companies advertise injury protection through “cushioning.”

I have always taken that to mean cushioning by absorbtion through cellular materials traditionally used in shoes prior to the introduction of no cellular polymers and visco elastics. I would be very suspicious of any claims to reduce injury by this means.

> But some studies suggest that shoes with cushioning materials fail to absorb impact when humans run and jump, and actually amplify force under certain conditions...

I think this relates to shock attentuation (and not cushioning) and was specifically found in shoes with viscoelastic materials additions (either as inlays or inserts.

toeslayer
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10th September 2007, 09:02 AM
Simon Spooner's Avatar
Simon Spooner Simon Spooner is offline
Podiatry Arena Veteran
 
About:
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: "I'm sick of flags - whatever colour. There's only one flag - the white flag.": Paul Hewson
Posts: 7,162
Join Date: Aug 2005
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 346
Thanked 860 Times in 638 Posts
Default Re: Do “cushioning” shoes really cushion impacts?

I've attached a couple of papers which explore some of these issues. The first paper explores some of the methodological problems. The second really explains what we have been talking about in the previous threads. Enjoy.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Shorten - The Myth of Running Shoe Cushioning-1.pdf (180.5 KB, 223 views)
File Type: pdf Ground_Stiffness_Metabolism.pdf (237.0 KB, 189 views)
__________________
Who? What? When? Why? Yeah? And? So? What?

"My mission drive is to open up my eyes, 'cause the wicked lies and all the sh!te you say..." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4NW5S1UTPQ

"Science is the antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition."
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11th September 2007, 07:28 PM
Paulo Silva's Avatar
Paulo Silva Paulo Silva is offline
Senior Member
 
About:
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Lisboa (Portugal)
Posts: 159
Join Date: Apr 2007
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 4
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Default Re: Do “cushioning” shoes really cushion impacts?

Hi

Craig Payne

I liked your view:)

toeslayer

Good point about cellular polymers and visco elastics.

Quote:
I think this relates to shock attenuation (and not cushioning)
Sorry, English its only one of my 3 not mother tong spoken languages, can you please explain this better?

Simon Spooner

Tanks for the info, what is your point of view on this?
__________________
Paulo Silva-MSSF
www.calcadodesportivo.com (Portuguese)
Member of the Society of Shoe Fitters
www.shoefitters-uk.org
My location
Thread Starter
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11th September 2007, 09:05 PM
Kevin Kirby's Avatar
Kevin Kirby Kevin Kirby is offline
Podiatry Arena Veteran
Most Valuable Poster (MVP)
 
About:
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,586
Join Date: Nov 2004
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 264
Thanked 1,642 Times in 925 Posts
Default Re: Do “cushioning” shoes really cushion impacts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo Silva View Post
Hello

I'm following the thread What do we mean by 'motion control' in running shoes and I remembered this:

Most athletic shoes companies advertise injury protection through “cushioning.”

But some studies suggest that shoes with cushioning materials fail to absorb impact when humans run and jump, and actually amplify force under certain conditions...

I would like to hear your opinions... on this

"Shoe cushioning" is the lay-public word for the shock absorbing midsoles of certain styles of shoes. Whether the midsole is ethylene vinyl acetate (EVA), polyurethane (PU), air, gel or springs, the idea is to allow a force on the midsole to allow deformation of the midsole to occur to absorb the impact of the foot hitting the ground during running.

Basically the idea is that the shoe midsole will be able to contribute toward the deceleration of the center of mass of the body toward the ground during the first half of the support phase of running gait. As Craig said, the human body has other, more important, shock-absorption methods including hip flexion, knee flexion, ankle joint dorsiflexion, subtalar joint pronation and longitudinal arch flattending during the first half of support phase to help "cushion" the impact of the foot landing on the ground during running.

Shoes can help absorb some of the impact forces of running, but only if the shoe cushioning is "tuned" for the individual's weight and running style. Too soft of a shoe midsole will bottom out quickly, causing more shock in a heavy runner. Too hard of a shoe midsole in a lighter runner, will not deform enough to maximize shock absorption. Shoe cushioning must, therefore, be tuned for the runner for optimum comfort and injury prevention. Unfortunately, sometimes, this is a trial and error process from a clinical standpoint. The clinician needs to have a good knowledge of both shoe biomechanics and running biomechanics to be able to help runner-patients find their optimal shoe for training and racing.
__________________
Sincerely,

Kevin

**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College

e-mail: kevinakirby@comcast.net

Private Practice:
107 Scripps Drive, Suite 200
Sacramento, CA 95825 USA
My location

Voice: (916) 925-8111 Fax: (916) 925-8136
**************************************************

Last edited by Kevin Kirby : 11th September 2007 at 10:18 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11th September 2007, 09:15 PM
Kevin Kirby's Avatar
Kevin Kirby Kevin Kirby is offline
Podiatry Arena Veteran
Most Valuable Poster (MVP)
 
About:
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,586
Join Date: Nov 2004
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 264
Thanked 1,642 Times in 925 Posts
Default Re: Do “cushioning” shoes really cushion impacts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Spooner View Post
I've attached a couple of papers which explore some of these issues. The first paper explores some of the methodological problems. The second really explains what we have been talking about in the previous threads. Enjoy.
Great papers, Simon.:) Hope everyone that treats runners as patients reads these papers.
__________________
Sincerely,

Kevin

**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College

e-mail: kevinakirby@comcast.net

Private Practice:
107 Scripps Drive, Suite 200
Sacramento, CA 95825 USA
My location

Voice: (916) 925-8111 Fax: (916) 925-8136
**************************************************
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11th September 2007, 10:14 PM
Caleb Wegener Caleb Wegener is offline
Podiatry Arena Rookie
 
About:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2
Join Date: Oct 2005
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: Do “cushioning” shoes really cushion impacts?

Cushioning does not reduce the vertical ground reaction force but rather increases the time taken for the initial ground reaction force peak to occur. This is an important function as it does give the body more time to adapt to the forces being applied. The greatest way to alter the size of the initial force peak is a change in running kinematics.

Cushioning does reduce high plantar pressures which have been shown to be associated with increased levels of foot pain in people with pes cavus (Burns et al., 2005). I have attached a paper that I presented at the ISB Footwear Symposium in Taipei. It showed large reductions in plantar pressure by neutral running shoes in athletes with a cavus foot type. However the patterns of pressure reduction differed significantly between shoes examined.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf AbstractFBG_final[1].pdf (36.7 KB, 73 views)
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11th September 2007, 10:24 PM
toeslayer's Avatar
toeslayer toeslayer is offline
Podiatry Arena Veteran
 
About:
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Perth WA
Posts: 949
Join Date: May 2007
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 8
Thanked 92 Times in 78 Posts
Default Re: Do “cushioning” shoes really cushion impacts?

Paulo

>Sorry, English its only one of my 3 not mother tong spoken languages, can you please explain this better?

Shock is a general term for impact and attentuation relates to measured amplitude when combined the phrase, ' shock attenuation ' describes properties of material which affect the magnitude (size) of impact force.

Cushioning is a term used to described physical ways of reducing peak pressures.

I would concur with Caleb's explanation.

toeslayer
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12th September 2007, 10:10 AM
Simon Spooner's Avatar
Simon Spooner Simon Spooner is offline
Podiatry Arena Veteran
 
About:
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: "I'm sick of flags - whatever colour. There's only one flag - the white flag.": Paul Hewson
Posts: 7,162
Join Date: Aug 2005
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 346
Thanked 860 Times in 638 Posts
Default Re: Do “cushioning” shoes really cushion impacts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caleb Wegener View Post
Cushioning does not reduce the vertical ground reaction force but rather increases the time taken for the initial ground reaction force peak to occur. This is an important function as it does give the body more time to adapt to the forces being applied.
But since the tissues are visco-elastic the slower rate of loading means that the tissues are less stiff and can store less energy as a result.
__________________
Who? What? When? Why? Yeah? And? So? What?

"My mission drive is to open up my eyes, 'cause the wicked lies and all the sh!te you say..." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4NW5S1UTPQ

"Science is the antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition."
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12th September 2007, 10:23 AM
Simon Spooner's Avatar
Simon Spooner Simon Spooner is offline
Podiatry Arena Veteran
 
About:
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: "I'm sick of flags - whatever colour. There's only one flag - the white flag.": Paul Hewson
Posts: 7,162
Join Date: Aug 2005
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 346
Thanked 860 Times in 638 Posts
Default Re: Do “cushioning” shoes really cushion impacts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Kirby View Post
Great papers, Simon.:) Hope everyone that treats runners as patients reads these papers.
Glad you enjoyed them- more on this in San Diego!
__________________
Who? What? When? Why? Yeah? And? So? What?

"My mission drive is to open up my eyes, 'cause the wicked lies and all the sh!te you say..." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4NW5S1UTPQ

"Science is the antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition."
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12th September 2007, 10:27 AM
Simon Spooner's Avatar
Simon Spooner Simon Spooner is offline
Podiatry Arena Veteran
 
About:
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: "I'm sick of flags - whatever colour. There's only one flag - the white flag.": Paul Hewson
Posts: 7,162
Join Date: Aug 2005
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 346
Thanked 860 Times in 638 Posts
Default Re: Do “cushioning” shoes really cushion impacts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo Silva View Post
Simon Spooner

Tanks for the info, what is your point of view on this?
Paulo,

I didn't attach the two papers for nothing! Read these and you will understand my view on this.
__________________
Who? What? When? Why? Yeah? And? So? What?

"My mission drive is to open up my eyes, 'cause the wicked lies and all the sh!te you say..." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4NW5S1UTPQ

"Science is the antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition."
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 13th September 2007, 02:56 PM
Paulo Silva's Avatar
Paulo Silva Paulo Silva is offline
Senior Member
 
About:
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Lisboa (Portugal)
Posts: 159
Join Date: Apr 2007
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 4
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Default Re: Do “cushioning” shoes really cushion impacts?

Tank you all for the comments and information it was very helpful.:)

Simon (I did read the paper's, about 4 times)
Kevin ( I agree with the tunning its very important but sometimes forgotten)
toeslayer (tanks)
Caleb Wegener (great papper)


I know I'm just a shoe fitter but reading your posts has been very enrichment for me.


Do you realize that in the retail, the average runner and even some health professionals think "cushioning" or shock absorbing as probably the only feature to look for wen buying athletic shoes (we see it every sale the customer itself or by any recommendation (magazine, health professional, friend, etc) asks about the cushioning ability of that particular shoe.

Even brand's "experts" wen go to retail or public talking about the shoes, their main focus usually its the cushion their brand particular technology provides.

I try to focus on Fit myself, but it's hard wen all around people speak another language:
__________________
Paulo Silva-MSSF
www.calcadodesportivo.com (Portuguese)
Member of the Society of Shoe Fitters
www.shoefitters-uk.org
My location
Thread Starter
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 13th September 2007, 04:12 PM
Craig Payne's Avatar
Craig Payne Craig Payne is offline
Moderator
Professor of Life, The Universe and Everything
 
About:
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 4,045
Join Date: Aug 2004
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 64
Thanked 614 Times in 420 Posts
Default Re: Do “cushioning” shoes really cushion impacts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo Silva View Post
I know I'm just a shoe fitter but reading your posts has been very enrichment for me.
Your insight is an enrichment for us!
Quote:
Do you realize that in the retail, the average runner and even some health professionals think "cushioning" or shock absorbing as probably the only feature to look for wen buying athletic shoes......
I recall the first mutters about "shock absorbtion/cushioning" perhaps not being all its cranked up to be first appearing >20 yrs ago! At the ISB Footwear Biomechanics conferences, this has been in mainstream scientific thought for some time now.....the problem is as long as magazines like Runners World continue to talk about it and rate shoes based on it and runners continue to be smart and read about it, the problem will remain.
__________________
Craig Payne
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________
Follow me on Twitter | Run Junkie
God put me on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things - right now I am so far behind, I will never die.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 13th September 2007, 08:26 PM
toomoon's Avatar
toomoon toomoon is offline
Podiatry Arena Veteran
 
About:
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 352
Join Date: Aug 2005
Marketplace reputation 0% (0)
Thanks: 10
Thanked 59 Times in 35 Posts
Default Re: Do “cushioning” shoes really cushion impacts?

oh oh.. it's me again.. a very interesting break off thread.

Gee I may as well stick with my terminology beef and say I think we are talking shock attenuation and not shock absorbtion! T

The big problem, as Caleb has pointed out is that the perception is that cushioning lessens impact peaks.. ie the 1st Fz peak, which it does not. Cushioning has a big eddect on pressue and shock, but an arguable effect on Fz impact peak occuring at about 50ms

The Kerdok paper is a very important one.. and brings to light the effect of viewing the lower limb as a spring hich may bemore or less compliant.

The issue with midsole hardness... and its supposed abilit to cushion, relates to its effect on this compliance.
This is very complex, because the brain identifies surface hardness instantly, and through altered muscle action, changes lower limb stiffness.

I have attached a few more papers for your reading pleasure

Maybe the term use by Kevin.. tuning.. needs a little more definition.. is it in relation to muscle preactivation.. as a learned or "hard-wired" response to surface and impact.. or is it a biofeedback loop which alters at every step in response to surface hardness.. the adidas 1 was based on this premise.

good discussion though

regards to all
Simon
Attached Files
File Type: pdf ankle biomechanics during landing.pdf (400.0 KB, 82 views)
File Type: pdf knee n ankle jt stiffness in sprinting.pdf (194.4 KB, 66 views)
File Type: pdf leg stiffness.pdf (621.7 KB, 68 views)
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Translate This Page

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Shoes damaging children's feet Admin Pediatrics 22 19th October 2011 06:01 PM
Should small children have shoes? larare Pediatrics 15 11th May 2009 07:50 PM
Effect of custom-made shoes on foot pain NewsBot General Issues and Discussion Forum 1 6th December 2006 03:36 PM
High heel shoes help leg venous pressure NewsBot General Issues and Discussion Forum 4 9th November 2006 03:31 AM
Foot Orthoses and Dress Shoes Craig Payne Biomechanics, Sports and Foot orthoses 2 1st December 2005 04:57 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

Finding your way around:

Browse the forums.

Search the site.

Browse the tags.

Search the tags.


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:03 AM.