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Do running shoes weaken muscles?

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  #31  
Old 24th October 2011, 04:46 PM
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Default Re: Do running shoes weaken muscles?

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Originally Posted by Sicknote View Post
So? What has that got to do with it?

If barefoot/minimalist running makes muscles stronger, it can only be because they make the muscles work harder.

Surely the muscles having to work harder is a sign of an inefficient gait - what has that got to do with progressive overload?
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  #32  
Old 24th October 2011, 08:51 PM
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Default Re: Do running shoes weaken muscles?

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Originally Posted by Sicknote View Post
I'm with Craig on this Sicknote, your logic is flawed and I'll tell you why:

1. If you use Wiki for as a source for accurate scientific evidence you seriously need to reevaluate your critical thinking skills and accept that it is at best a subjectively reported and documented source.

2. If we did not walk on our feet and bear weight every single day, experience ground reactive force and gravity etc. your supposition might exhibit a scintilla of truth and reasoning. In light of these facts no ambulatory person exhibits muscle atrophy walking and during activities of daily living.

Does walking or running barefoot increase muscular activity in the feet and legs? Yes. Does it do so more than simply walking? I'm not the authority on that but as Craig points out it may be because it is so inefficient and what is really good about that? Barefooters need to get over this "drink the Kool Aid" mindset and realize that shoes, like seatbelts, helmets and earplugs at a firing are protective and improve quality of life and decrease injury. We have evidence of these things and those who do not agree should simply stand in front of the targets at the firing range to improve the sanity of the herd.
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  #33  
Old 24th October 2011, 09:19 PM
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Default Re: Do running shoes weaken muscles?

Just thinking this through.....So, if the running shoes were to make one weaker it would fly in the face of a concept ....that the more unstable the base of support, the more the CNS will attempt stablization through muscle activation in the lower extremity...

So, then logically would it not make more sense that the opposite be true? That running shoes would if anything strengthen the limb over time ?

Just thinking about that "zools" thread.....
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  #34  
Old 24th October 2011, 10:20 PM
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Default Re: Do running shoes weaken muscles?

Not wanting to change the subject too much.

But if running shoes weaken foot muscles so much due to the "excessive" support , what does all of this say about cyclist, who wear rigid carbon fiber shoes for many long hours at a time?

Does this say that all cyclist pronate heavily once they take off their cycling footwear, due to the weakened foot muscles from their "over" excessive supportive footwear?
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  #35  
Old 25th October 2011, 01:01 AM
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Default Re: Do running shoes weaken muscles?

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Originally Posted by Boots n all View Post
Not wanting to change the subject too much.

But if running shoes weaken foot muscles so much due to the "excessive" support , what does all of this say about cyclist, who wear rigid carbon fiber shoes for many long hours at a time?

Does this say that all cyclist pronate heavily once they take off their cycling footwear, due to the weakened foot muscles from their "over" excessive supportive footwear?
Good point.

Perhaps those who thing running shoes weaken muscles could explain why cyclists do not have 'weak' muscles and an epidemic of flat feet.
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  #36  
Old 25th October 2011, 01:24 AM
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Default Re: Do running shoes weaken muscles?

Quote:
But if running shoes weaken foot muscles so much due to the "excessive" support , what does all of this say about cyclist, who wear rigid carbon fiber shoes for many long hours at a time?

Does this say that all cyclist pronate heavily once they take off their cycling footwear, due to the weakened foot muscles from their "over" excessive supportive footwear?
yeah.. no kidding.. I have pondered this exact concepty myself many times in my quiet momnets.. usually flying somewhere to argue with a barefooter or minmalistpersonagethingo.
the next question is.. why do runners get so introspective about their footwear? it is a phenomenon unique to running.
Cycling, the other great mass participation sport, seems very content with the concept that it is about being sociable and having fun, and that not everyone wants to be Cadel Evans. In fact, every non professional cyclist i have ever met is quite content to be a little fat.. go out for a big ride a couple of times a week, then meet up with their cycling mates for a latte and a cream bun. Narry a diatribe on cycling shoes (despite the fact they are hugely expensive).. in sight.

this continues to puzzle me, and I believe it gets back to the extraordinary power of the minimalist and barefoot running bloggers who can post whatever they like, when ever they like, with Zero accountability..

Arrrrrrrrggggggh
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  #37  
Old 25th October 2011, 01:33 AM
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Default Re: Do running shoes weaken muscles?

Quote:
Originally Posted by toomoon View Post
this continues to puzzle me, and I believe it gets back to the extraordinary power of the minimalist and barefoot running bloggers who can post whatever they like, when ever they like, with Zero accountability..
Its almost as though if you are a barefoot runner, you are then qualified to give medical advice .... don't figure

Did you read post 14 in this thread in which I commented on a runner who now has a permanent disability and will probably never run again because they got their medical advice from a barefoot website rather than believe their orthopedic surgeon.

A large part of the problem is confirmation bias and cherry picking.
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  #38  
Old 25th October 2011, 06:44 PM
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Default Re: Do running shoes weaken muscles?

Here is another related observation ... you often hear comments that running shoes are like braces for the neck and the knee (etc) in that they weaken the muscles as the muscles are used as much. Well, knee bracing for the knee in OA does not weaken the muscles (link).
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  #39  
Old 25th October 2011, 07:00 PM
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Default Re: Do running shoes weaken muscles?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Payne View Post
Here is another related observation ... you often hear comments that running shoes are like braces for the neck and the knee (etc) in that they weaken the muscles as the muscles are used as much. Well, knee bracing for the knee in OA does not weaken the muscles (link).
Craig:

Many of the barefooters like to use the analogy that foot orthoses weaken the foot since they say that foot orthoses act like neck braces, by restricting motion.

Rather, in response, I have always said that foot orthoses help guide the motion of the joints of the foot and ankle rather restricting the motion of these joints.

I don't know of any foot orthosis that has the ability to reduce the available range of motion of any of the foot or lower extremity joints. However, foot orthoses do have the ability to alter the kinetics across the joints of the foot and lower extremity which will help guide these joints toward more normal kinematics during weightbearing activities.

In addition, do we really want muscle-bound feet, which have a higher than normal mass, when we run? The best running animals are designed with most of their extremities' muscle mass proximallyand with their distal extremities (e.g. feet, paws, hooves) having fairly low mass. Why would we even want a muscle-bound foot for running? Having heavier feet, with more muscle mass, would probably slow us down due to the increase in moment of inertia of the lower extremity which has repeatedly been shown in scientific research to decrease the metabolic efficiency of running. It's much better to have bigger muscles proximally for running animals since more muscle mass proximally, rather than distally, will decrease the moment of inertia of the limb and make running more efficient.
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  #40  
Old 25th October 2011, 08:00 PM
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Default Re: Do running shoes weaken muscles?

Kevin.. do you have any thoughts.. anecdotally of course, on the potential percentage increase in foot weight due to uscle hypertrophy, secondary to barefoot running. is it tiny, or does it have the potential to be quite large/
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  #41  
Old 26th October 2011, 04:18 AM
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Default Re: Do running shoes weaken muscles?

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Originally Posted by toomoon View Post
Kevin.. do you have any thoughts.. anecdotally of course, on the potential percentage increase in foot weight due to uscle hypertrophy, secondary to barefoot running. is it tiny, or does it have the potential to be quite large/
Simon:

I don't even know if barefoot running causes an increase in foot weight or an increase in foot strength. My reason for making that statement is that one of the head scientific researchers that promotes barefoot running once made the statement to me that running in orthotics and shoes weaken feet, "like wearing a neck brace".

My first response was that in my 28 years of examining runners who wear shoes when they run, I have not seen a single one of these runners with what I call a "weak foot", with atrophied intrinsic muscles. The act of running itself develops better muscle strength just due to the increased demands on the foot muscles caused by resisting the effects of 2.5-3.0 X BW banging against the foot with each running step.

My second response was that I didn't know that the goal of running was to develop muscle-bound feet. Having more massive feet will not make you run faster or more efficiently. This is because the primary driving muscular forces for running come from proximal in the leg and thigh. It would not make good mechanical sense for runners to have larger foot muscles than they needed to since this would slow them down by increasing the moment of inertia of their lower extremites and would, in turn, make them less metabolically efficient during running.

From my perspective, this idea that running shoes or orthotics somehow weaken feet is just another one of the unproven hypotheses that is coming from a bunch of zealots who want everyone to believe that wearing shoes and orthoses is somehow unhealthy and think we should return to a more "natural" lifestyle..........whatever that is?!
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  #42  
Old 28th October 2011, 02:01 AM
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Default Re: Do running shoes weaken muscles?

Does anyone know anything about a guy called Daniel Howell. He calls himself The Barefoot Doctor, and I have to debate him at the upcoming UK SEM conference in London...
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  #43  
Old 28th October 2011, 02:15 AM
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Does anyone know anything about a guy called Daniel Howell. He calls himself The Barefoot Doctor, and I have to debate him at the upcoming UK SEM conference in London...
He will be easy to debate with. I have his book. Its all propaganda and no substance. His understanding in the book of foot biomechanics is woeful (eg still talks about the discredited tripod model of the foot!!). He has made claims that shoes interfere with the windlass .... easy to make a fool of him over that one by showing in-shoe first met head pressures. His PhD is in biochemistry, so that somehow makes him an expert in biomechanics and somehow qualifies him to give medical advice on foot problems. He personifies what I have repeatedly said in 100's of posts:
Quote:
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As I have repeatedly said in numerous posts in numerous threads, I have nothing against barefoot running, what I object to is the misuse, misrepresentation, misquoting and misinterpretation of the science by the Evangelists from the Church of Barefoot Running.
I won't wish you luck for the debate, as you won't need it.
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  #44  
Old 28th October 2011, 02:15 AM
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Default Re: Do running shoes weaken muscles?

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Does anyone know anything about a guy called Daniel Howell. He calls himself The Barefoot Doctor, and I have to debate him at the upcoming UK SEM conference in London...
You can read his book

http://www.thebarefootbook.com/

50 great reason to kick off your shoes - apparently
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  #45  
Old 28th October 2011, 04:23 AM
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Default Re: Do running shoes weaken muscles?

Quote:
Did you know that shoes are the major cause of almost all our foot problems? Find out why going barefoot is best for your feet and body.

No daniel i did not know that. And i wonder how you do.
Honestly, i've never heard such nonsense. I dont know why we are still debating this stuff with these idiots.
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Old 28th October 2011, 07:53 AM
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Default Re: Do running shoes weaken muscles?

I have no doubt shoes do cause a lot of problems, but if you going to make statements like that, come up with the evidence and back it up.

I wonder how he explains the extraordinary high number of injuries in barefoot runners that are being seen? Barefoot running is good for business.
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Old 28th October 2011, 08:28 AM
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Default Re: Do running shoes weaken muscles?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Payne View Post
I have no doubt shoes do cause a lot of problems, but if you going to make statements like that, come up with the evidence and back it up.
No sooner than posting the above I got an email. You know when the email starts off with
Quote:
eat **** and die
and a few more expletives that its not a good sign. It says a lot about the person sending the email and also the weakness of their argument that they totally incapable of having any dialogue about the actual issue and have to resort to name calling.

They were shouting about all the studies that show that flat feet is caused by footwear. Experiences has shown me the folly of responding to emails that start like the above as the name calling only escalates, so I will respond here.

For there benefit I will type this slowly:
There are no studies that show shoes cause flat feet (we have discussed this many times in many threads).

There are some studies that have shown a high correlation between flat feet and shoes when you compare shoe wearing to non-shoe wearing populations, so how do you interpret that. There are several ways to interpret the results:
1. The shoes caused the flat feet
2. Those with flat feet wear shoes as they feel better wearing them
3. Those who wear shoes more often walk on hard surfaces and it was the hard surface that caused the flat feet
4. etc

Those with an agenda to promote will believe that correlation is causation and interpret that research as "1. The shoes caused the flat feet". This is the classic
Quote:
misuse, misrepresentation, misquoting and misinterpretation of the science
The rest of the world will be open to any one of the explanations being the reason. I have no doubt that shoes do cause a lot of problems, but you can't use the above type of correlation studies as evidence for that.
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Old 28th October 2011, 08:40 AM
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Default Re: Do running shoes weaken muscles?

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Originally Posted by Craig Payne View Post
No sooner than posting the above I got an email. You know when the email starts off with
Quote:
eat **** and die
and a few more expletives that its not a good sign. It says a lot about the person sending the email.......
Sorry Craig, had a bad day. Will try and be more civil in future .
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Old 28th October 2011, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toomoon View Post
Does anyone know anything about a guy called Daniel Howell. He calls himself The Barefoot Doctor, and I have to debate him at the upcoming UK SEM conference in London...
Simon - you can also read Daniel's musings on twitter:

www.twitter.com/barefoot_prof
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Old 28th October 2011, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Payne View Post
No sooner than posting the above I got an email. You know when the email starts off with eat **** and die and a few more expletives that its not a good sign. It says a lot about the person sending the email and also the weakness of their argument that they totally incapable of having any dialogue about the actual issue and have to resort to name calling.

They were shouting about all the studies that show that flat feet is caused by footwear. Experiences has shown me the folly of responding to emails that start like the above as the name calling only escalates, so I will respond here.

For there benefit I will type this slowly:
There are no studies that show shoes cause flat feet (we have discussed this many times in many threads).

There are some studies that have shown a high correlation between flat feet and shoes when you compare shoe wearing to non-shoe wearing populations, so how do you interpret that. There are several ways to interpret the results:
1. The shoes caused the flat feet
2. Those with flat feet wear shoes as they feel better wearing them
3. Those who wear shoes more often walk on hard surfaces and it was the hard surface that caused the flat feet
4. etc

Those with an agenda to promote will believe that correlation is causation and interpret that research as "1. The shoes caused the flat feet". This is the classicThe rest of the world will be open to any one of the explanations being the reason. I have no doubt that shoes do cause a lot of problems, but you can't use the above type of correlation studies as evidence for that.
Do people really care that much about taking off your shoes to go for a run.

People really have got their priorities messed up.

More important things in life..................

and to the person who email Craig get over it a wake up to yourself it really is not that important go visit a Cancer ward or Homeless shelter spend some time there get some perspective
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  #51  
Old 30th October 2011, 03:57 PM
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Default Re: Do running shoes weaken muscles?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boots n all View Post
Not wanting to change the subject too much.

But if running shoes weaken foot muscles so much due to the "excessive" support , what does all of this say about cyclist, who wear rigid carbon fiber shoes for many long hours at a time?

Does this say that all cyclist pronate heavily once they take off their cycling footwear, due to the weakened foot muscles from their "over" excessive supportive footwear?
On a similar vein, I don't recall seeing an epidemic of flat feet every ski season. Skiers spend all day in the most supportive footwear that exists.....perhaps those who think that running shoes weaken muscles could explain why it dosen't happen in skiing?

So i guess:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Payne View Post
Consider this:
1. There is not even close to being any evidence that they do (given the strength of the claims being made you would kinda think that there would be)
2. If running shoes were to weaken muscles, then you would assume that they do it by restricting motion. The evidence is that running shoes do not that.
3. If it was true, then you would expect to see more pronated/flat feet in runners compared to the general population. There is absolutely no evidence that is the case and not even a hint by anyone that this is the case.
4. If someone is a non-runner and then takes up running (lets say in the most motion controlling running shoe), then surely they are going to be using muscles more and the muscles will actually get stronger (I would love the barefoot running community to explain away this point!)
5. I have no doubt that barefoot running can make muscles stronger, but that does not mean that they were weak to start with.
6. Weakness of intrinsic foot muscles actually leads to a higher arch foot, not a flat pronated foot! And we know from the evidence of Lizis et al (2010) that muscles strength is not even related to arch height.
7. If this was the cause of flat/pronated feet, then how do you explain a flat/pronated foot in those who do not wear running shoes or even any shoes at all?
8. (I accept that the EMG signal is not really a sign of muscle strength, but you got my point)
9. Those who wear the most supportive rigid shoes (eg cyclists, skiers) do not develop weak or flat feet
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Old 4th November 2011, 04:05 PM
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Default Re: Do running shoes weaken muscles?

http://video.nytimes.com/video/2011/...f-running.html

hope the link works. If it does i challange anyone to watch it and not get really annoyed at it. Incredibley frustrating that someone can make such wild claims with no back up.
JB
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Old 4th November 2011, 05:06 PM
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Craig Payne Craig Payne is offline
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Default Re: Do running shoes weaken muscles?

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Originally Posted by JB1973 View Post
Incredibley frustrating that someone can make such wild claims with no back up.
They can't back it up. They actually believe the stuff they are making up! Even worse, people fall for it. Show me the science!
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As I have repeatedly said in numerous posts in numerous threads, I have nothing against barefoot running, what I object to is the misuse, misrepresentation, misquoting and misinterpretation of the science by the Evangelists from the Church of Barefoot Running.
On another note, just yesterday got my copy of the booklet from Michael Shermer and Pat Linse: The Baloney Detection Kit. This thread makes a good case study of this.... if more of this stuff was put through the Baloney Detection Kit, then so many would not fall for it.
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  #54  
Old 4th November 2011, 05:13 PM
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Default Re: Do running shoes weaken muscles?

Thank you for posting that, made my day. Here I am studying clinical biomechanics and this 19th century chemistry apprentice had the answer all along. I'm throwing my books out the window!

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Old 4th November 2011, 05:24 PM
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Default Re: Do running shoes weaken muscles?

In viewing the video JB posted I have to ask if anyone else thinks that what Chris McDougall is demonstrating to those people and having them perform looks nothing like the running form he uses at the beginning of the video? He sure looks like a heel striker to me, heel/toe runner?
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Old 4th November 2011, 05:32 PM
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Craig Payne Craig Payne is offline
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Default Re: Do running shoes weaken muscles?

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Originally Posted by David Wedemeyer View Post
In viewing the video JB posted I have to ask if anyone else thinks that what Chris McDougall is demonstrating to those people and having them perform looks nothing like the running form he uses at the beginning of the video? He sure looks like a heel striker to me, heel/toe runner?
The drill looks like something that is commonly done by those teaching the Pose running technique (I think)
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Old 4th November 2011, 05:59 PM
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Default Re: Do running shoes weaken muscles?

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Originally Posted by JB1973 View Post
http://video.nytimes.com/video/2011/...f-running.html

hope the link works. If it does i challange anyone to watch it and not get really annoyed at it. Incredibley frustrating that someone can make such wild claims with no back up.
JB
I wish I was there so I could tell Chris McDougall these words:

"Man, you are so full of yourself that you actually believe the bull**** that you are trying to teach these poor runners. Why don't you go back to writing and your slow running style and leave proper running techniques to experienced coaches who aren't trying to sell something as being "new and improved" all the time!!"

What a joke!!
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Old 5th November 2011, 02:09 AM
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Default Re: Do running shoes weaken muscles?

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Originally Posted by Craig Payne View Post
The drill looks like something that is commonly done by those teaching the Pose running technique (I think)
I don't think so The pose runners are disowning it as bad technique:
http://www.posecoachblog.com/2011/11...owup-post.html
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  #59  
Old 5th November 2011, 02:29 PM
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Default Re: Do running shoes weaken muscles?

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I don't think so The pose runners are disowning it as bad technique:
http://www.posecoachblog.com/2011/11...owup-post.html
Its not just the Pose runners. This science blog has caught McDougal out in a lie! (saying something different now to what he said in an interview in 2009!)
Quote:
What about the science in the article? I can’t really critique it, because there isn’t any science there — it’s all anecdote.
Quote:
So does this prove that barefoot running is a sham? Of course not. Injuries happen, with or without shoes. But it points to a fundamental dishonesty in the way the story is being told.
Full story
Some of the comments in the post are interesting:
Quote:
Busted!
Quote:
Beware of successful writers. There’s a tendency, irresistible for some, to bend the facts to make a point
Quote:
if he really thinks that I should assign his experience more value than my own, he really needs to get a better grip on reality.
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Old 6th November 2011, 10:07 AM
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Default Re: Do running shoes weaken muscles?

The saying never let the truth get i the way of a good story comes to mind
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