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Vibram Five Fingers are sooooo 2011...

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  #31  
Old 5th January 2012, 01:24 PM
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Default Re: Vibram Five Fingers are sooooo 2011...

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Originally Posted by Dana Roueche View Post

Hopefully I have been simple enough and clear enough for you to understand what I've written.

Dana
Nice.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dana Roueche View Post
I already know that there is no one on this forum that has any grounds to base their negativity towards the very existence of Vibram Fivefingers or the use of them for running. Yet for years, all I've seen is unsupported negativity repeated over and over from many of the more vocal "professionals" on this "professional" forum.

What p****s me off about "professional" people posting on a "professional" forum is that they have unsupported opinions who SHOULD know how science works and should know better.
It's the shear arrogance of non-professionals like Dana and Sicknote who find their way to this site and insult the intelligence of the professionals who write here that I find so distasteful. Personally, rather than listen to an amateur jogger who writes on a blog site, I'd rather take histories from injuried patients and review the trends within them; I'd prefer to read reports from other professional colleagues and from peer reviewed journals to form my opinions. Like this one, for example:
Barefoot-simulating Footwear Associated With Metatarsal Stress Injury in 2 Runners.

Giuliani J, Masini B, Alitz C, Owens BD.
Orthopedics. 2011 Jul 7;34(7):e320-3. doi: 10.3928/01477447-20110526-25.
Quote:
Stress-related changes and fractures in the foot are frequent in runners. However, the causative factors, including anatomic and kinematic variables, are not well defined. Footwear choice has also been implicated in contributing to injury patterns with changes in force transmission and gait analyses reported in the biomechanical literature. Despite the benefits of footwear, there has been increased interest among the running community in barefoot running with proposed benefits including a decreased rate of injury. We report 2 cases of metatarsal stress fracture in experienced runners whose only regimen change was the adoption of barefoot-simulating footwear. One was a 19-year-old runner who developed a second metatarsal stress reaction along the entire diaphysis. The second case was a 35-year-old ultra-marathon runner who developed a fracture in the second metatarsal diaphysis after 6 weeks of use of the same footwear. While both stress injuries healed without long-term effects, these injuries are alarming in that they occurred in experienced male runners without any other risk factors for stress injury to bone. The suspected cause for stress injury in these 2 patients is the change to barefoot-simulating footwear. Runners using these shoes should be cautioned on the potential need for gait alterations from a heel-strike to a midfoot-striking pattern, as well as cautioned on the symptoms of stress injury.


Moreover, we are now accused of bias by this amateur jogger who found his way onto a site designated "for discussion by podiatrists and other foot health professionals about all aspects of podiatry". And has been allowed to write here, despite the fact that he is neither a podiatrist, researcher, nor foot health professional. He's an amateur runner who works for IBM (allegedly). Did anyone read the Lieberman study? No potential for bias there from the man who's research is sponsored by Vibram....
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  #32  
Old 5th January 2012, 02:56 PM
Dana Roueche Dana Roueche is offline
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Default Re: Vibram Five Fingers are sooooo 2011...

Simon, your example has a sample size of 2. hmmmmm.

Dana Roueche, Jan 5, 2012
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Quote:
Using a sample size of 1 less than the Giuliani, Masini, Alitz, Owens findings, the runner was a 54 year old male who ran 7,300 miles over the course of 2 yrs. I report no case of metatarsal stress fractures or any sort of injury what so ever but do report an improvement in posted marathon and ultra marathon times over the course of the 2 yr time period. The only regimen change was the adoption of barefoot-simulating footware worn for 78% of the mileage completed in the 2 yr period. The suspected cause of the improvement in performance with a complete lack of injury is the change to barefoot-simulating footware.


Simon, if you are hanging your hat on the example you provided, my only response is Holy Cow!

The only reason I have hung around this forum is because I frankly can't get over what I read here. My professional background, experience, undergraduate and graduate degrees would never allow me to generalize about a group of people from a small sample. I will not and can not generalize about people in the Podiatry Profession based on the writing from a small sample of people on this forum that consider themselves Podiatry professionals.

I continue to read and write here with the expectation that a podiatry professional will join and contribute to this forum in a fashion that will shed a more positive light on the podiatry profession in general.

Given the nature of what I do for my past-time and in spite of it being 40 yrs without an injury, it is inevitable that I will some day become injured and need the help of a medical professional. Based on what I've read on this forum over the past two years, I am convinced that anything short of going to a surgeon to have my feet amputated means that I am out of luck.

Dana
  #33  
Old 5th January 2012, 03:34 PM
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Default Re: Vibram Five Fingers are sooooo 2011...

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Originally Posted by Dana Roueche View Post
Simon, your example has a sample size of 2. hmmmmm.

Dana Roueche, Jan 5, 2012
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Quote:
Using a sample size of 1 less than the Giuliani, Masini, Alitz, Owens findings, the runner was a 54 year old male who ran 7,300 miles over the course of 2 yrs. I report no case of metatarsal stress fractures or any sort of injury what so ever but do report an improvement in posted marathon and ultra marathon times over the course of the 2 yr time period. The only regimen change was the adoption of barefoot-simulating footware worn for 78% of the mileage completed in the 2 yr period. The suspected cause of the improvement in performance with a complete lack of injury is the change to barefoot-simulating footware.


Simon, if you are hanging your hat on the example you provided, my only response is Holy Cow!

The only reason I have hung around this forum is because I frankly can't get over what I read here. My professional background, experience, undergraduate and graduate degrees would never allow me to generalize about a group of people from a small sample. I will not and can not generalize about people in the Podiatry Profession based on the writing from a small sample of people on this forum that consider themselves Podiatry professionals.

I continue to read and write here with the expectation that a podiatry professional will join and contribute to this forum in a fashion that will shed a more positive light on the podiatry profession in general.

Given the nature of what I do for my past-time and in spite of it being 40 yrs without an injury, it is inevitable that I will some day become injured and need the help of a medical professional. Based on what I've read on this forum over the past two years, I am convinced that anything short of going to a surgeon to have my feet amputated means that I am out of luck.

Dana
And that exemplifies my case in point. We do not hang our hats on sample sizes of 1, 2 or two hundred, we look at the evidence base from the anecdotal to the controlled trial and we critique it- hence we look at the Lieberman study and wonder how it ever got published; hence we read what you have to say and see it for what it is- the views of an untrained amateur jogger who for some reason feels the need to keep writing on a professional forum which he has no justification to be writing upon and has now taken to insulting the professionals who validly write their opinions there; we look at our patients on a daily basis and make informed decisions as skilled and learned practitioners who have trained, passed examinations and continue to have to justify our abilities to our professional body's in order to remain upon their registers. Some of us actively engage in research and publication; some of us act as professional reviewers for the very peer reviewed articles in which scientific articles regarding lower extremity biomechanics are published; some of us are invited to speak around the world on the biomechanics of running. You Dana, are just a single amateur runner. You've given us your case report. We heard it (the first time) we even thanked you for it (then). But we don't need to keep hearing it, over and over. Frankly, I've heard it too many times now and would rather not have to hear it again. You certainly don't appear to have anything else to say. Not withstanding, a report of two runners published by medics in a peer reviewed professional journal still trumps anything you can ever tell me about yourself, Dana. Do you know how many runner patients my colleagues and I see as a collective during the course of any week, month or year? You have no idea, nor do I- but it's more than the world according to Dana, that I do know. So, today I heard a selection of case reports from runners just like you. You are not something special. Yet still you presume that your opinion is as valid as the opinion of a practitioner with say twenty years of clinical experience who is seeing in excess of a hundred patients per week. That your opinion is more important than someone who works in research and development for a major running shoe manufacturer; that your opinion is more important than the guys in the local running shop etc etc.

What are you missing Dana? Pretty much everything that excludes you. The podiatry profession doesn't even know who you are, nor cares. Moreover, you clearly know nothing about the podiatry profession, yet you see fit to attempt a carte blanche attack of it. How naive.

Given the nature of what you do? You work for IBM and run in your spare time. I've been running for nearly 40 years and never had a running related injury. Like I said, you're nothing special and the sooner you get that into your head, the better. I have nothing against vibram five fingers...
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  #34  
Old 5th January 2012, 03:47 PM
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Default Re: Vibram Five Fingers are sooooo 2011...

So why the negativity about Vibram Fivefingers and other other shoes marketed as minimal running shoes?

Dana
  #35  
Old 5th January 2012, 04:00 PM
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Default Re: Vibram Five Fingers are sooooo 2011...

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Originally Posted by Dana Roueche View Post
So why the negativity about Vibram Fivefingers and other other shoes marketed as minimal running shoes?

Dana
Is it negativity or just critical appraisal in light of exaggerated marketing claims and flawed research? That and the fact that over the past twelve months there have been no-end of barefoot /minimalist running zealots who don't know their arse from their elbow coming on here trying to tell us our own jobs. Just guessing. So, the perceived negativity is actually often just naive people having their flawed premises and ideals shot down by science and individuals who actually know more about the subject than they do. They think they know what they are talking about, but due to lack of professional training and knowledge base, their understanding is found wanting.

While I have nothing against Vibram five fingers , I am equally under no disillusion that they are somehow the secret to the end of injuries among runners. No, I have nothing against vibram five fingers, its generally the kind of people who seem to want to wear them that put my back up. No, that's not fair. It's the people who want to wear them and then who feel the need to write on websites about wearing them in the hope that other people might wear them too. That and the marketing extrapolation of the "research" which is paid for by the manufacturers and is as weak as a bag of weakness. Today, I wore a pair of Nike dunk low, I didn't feel the need to go onto a website and extol their virtues in the hope that everyone would tomorrow be wearing Nike dunk low to perform podiatry in. What is wrong with such people that their lives are so vacuous that they want to write on a blogsite of a profession that has nothing to do with their own chosen profession to tell people what trainers they wear when jogging? Moreover to try to convert others to wearing said training shoe? Weird with a capital We. Only to be out weirded by people who want to write on a professional site about said trainers, but lack enough self esteem to actually use their given name. Christ help us.

Actually that's not true, I do have something against vibram five fingers- they are as ugly as sin and make the wearer look like a clown.
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  #36  
Old 5th January 2012, 04:22 PM
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Default Re: Vibram Five Fingers are sooooo 2011...

Simon, when the next example of blatant negativity that I see as lack of professionalism not critical appraisal surfaces on this forum, I will directly point it out to you. I won't be waiting long.

When I stumbled upon this forum over 2 yrs ago, I pretty much ran in traditional running shoes. I was far from what I would consider a barefoot/minimal running zealot. Frankly I was appalled by what I was reading here so I decided to try Vibrams and a long list of minimal running shoes that subsequently came to market to see what all of the stink the "professionals" on this forum were having about them. I quickly learned that the negative claims here were simply unsupported, anecdotal, emotional arm waving in response to the barefoot/minimalist running zealots.

I really don't care what you or anyone else thinks about minimalist shoes. I find it a laugh that there can be so much animosity without the science to support it.

Dana
  #37  
Old 5th January 2012, 04:34 PM
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Default Re: Vibram Five Fingers are sooooo 2011...

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Originally Posted by Dana Roueche View Post
Simon, when the next example of blatant negativity that I see as lack of professionalism not critical appraisal surfaces on this forum, I will directly point it out to you. I won't be waiting long.

When I stumbled upon this forum over 2 yrs ago, I pretty much ran in traditional running shoes. I was far from what I would consider a barefoot/minimal running zealot. Frankly I was appalled by what I was reading here so I decided to try Vibrams and a long list of minimal running shoes that subsequently came to market to see what all of the stink the "professionals" on this forum were having about them. I quickly learned that the negative claims here were simply unsupported, anecdotal, emotional arm waving in response to the barefoot/minimalist running zealots.

I really don't care what you or anyone else thinks about minimalist shoes. I find it a laugh that there can be so much animosity without the science to support it.

Dana
Precisely what claims have been made about them here, Dana? Lets examine your conjecture, if we must. List the so called negative claims and link to the posts where such claims might have been made. Lets examine the evidence....
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  #38  
Old 5th January 2012, 05:02 PM
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Default Re: Vibram Five Fingers are sooooo 2011...

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Precisely what claims have been made about them here, Dana? Lets examine your conjecture, if we must. List the so called negative claims and link to the posts where such claims might have been made. Lets examine the evidence....
Sure, since you gave a poor example of a 2 subject article on stress fractures, let's use that. How many times have you read on this forum about the "metatarsal stress fracture epidemic" caused by Vibram Fivefingers? The statement, opinion, conjecture is based on nothing more than anecdotal observation and speculation. There is absolutely NO supporting science or evidence behind it. Kevin Kirby started a whole, long winded thread about it that went on forever. With that claim, there has been no indication of the experience or skill level of the runners with the stress fractures, the nature of the training, pre-existing conditions, age, sex, diet, history, nature of use or mis-use of the shoes, intelligence of the runner, etc. There is also no consideration of the fact that over the past 6 or 7 yrs the number of runners has completely exploded. The running boom of the 70's is a pimple compared to what has gone on in the 2000's. Just the sheer increase in numbers is going to result in an explosion of common running injuries regardless of shoes.

Dana
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Old 5th January 2012, 05:09 PM
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Default Re: Vibram Five Fingers are sooooo 2011...

I'm not arguing that there isn't a connection between VFF and stress fractures but I would never make that leap without concrete supporting evidence. I also know as an experienced runner that injuries like metatarsal stress fractures are easily preventable regardless of shoes. For some individuals, if they are not easily preventable, the shoes probably aren't going to matter.

Dana
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Old 6th January 2012, 01:09 AM
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Default Re: Vibram Five Fingers are sooooo 2011...

I have not entered this debate at all for several reasons. Firstly and mainly is that I am 100% disinterested in running. However, I am beginning to note that it is getting personal - never a good thing. I have noted several really quite marked criticisms of Dan Leiberman's work from persons with an academic background that doesn't come withing cooee of his. Please, all stop and take pause. Dan is a Professor at Harvard; last time I heard they were not appointing at any level, never mind at professorial level, podiatrically qualified persons, with or without a PhD. He is publishing in Nature, among others. I suspect that no one here has referreed for Nature - including myself. Rob
  #41  
Old 6th January 2012, 01:16 AM
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Default Re: Vibram Five Fingers are sooooo 2011...

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Originally Posted by Rob Kidd View Post
I have not entered this debate at all for several reasons. Firstly and mainly is that I am 100% disinterested in running. However, I am beginning to note that it is getting personal - never a good thing. I have noted several really quite marked criticisms of Dan Leiberman's work from persons with an academic background that doesn't come withing cooee of his. Please, all stop and take pause. Dan is a Professor at Harvard; last time I heard they were not appointing at any level, never mind at professorial level, podiatrically qualified persons, with or without a PhD. He is publishing in Nature, among others. I suspect that no one here has referreed for Nature - including myself. Rob
And have you read the study that was published in Nature? I suggest you do and put your critical cap on- see what weaknesses in the methodology you can find. Hint- there are a number. Personally, I don't care if a paper is published by Stephen Hawking or Bob Hosking, if it's put out to publication, it's put out to be critiqued.
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  #42  
Old 6th January 2012, 02:25 AM
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Default Re: Vibram Five Fingers are sooooo 2011...

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And have you read the study that was published in Nature? I suggest you do and put your critical cap on- see what weaknesses in the methodology you can find. Hint- there are a number. Personally, I don't care if a paper is published by Stephen Hawking or Bob Hosking, if it's put out to publication, it's put out to be critiqued.
Agreed. Who you are/where you work/what your job title is does not make your work exempt from critique.

I'm not sure I even recall anyone being personal about Dan Lieberman anyway? All criticisms have generally always been about his work (using his 2011 paper in Nature as an example: it's flawed methodology and the way its findings were misinterpreted - the latter no fault of Dr Lieberman himself).
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  #43  
Old 6th January 2012, 04:41 AM
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Default Re: Vibram Five Fingers are sooooo 2011...

Please note I said "this debate", not "this thread".

From this thread:

"...And that exemplifies my case in point. We do not hang our hats on sample sizes of 1, 2 or two hundred, we look at the evidence base from the anecdotal to the controlled trial and we critique it- hence we look at the Lieberman study and wonder how it ever got published;...."

And in Craig's "there is no debate..."

"...Then there is this recent article from the New York Times... Are We Built to Run Barefoot?

Putting aside the monotonous Lieberman nonsense... the following I found questionable in the real world of running..."

These are unbelievably arrogant comments from persons with either a minimal publication record, or none at all.

Rob
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Old 6th January 2012, 05:32 AM
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Default Re: Vibram Five Fingers are sooooo 2011...

I suggest you should read the paper. What problems do you spot within it? Does a publication record make one better able to critically review the publications of others?

Here's the way I look at it: if this paper were submitted for review to one of the journals which I act as a professional reviewer for, would I have accepted it for publication in it's present form. The answer in the case in point is- probably not. How is this being arrogant? Is it liebermans fault ? No, it's the fault of the reviewers.

I don't buy your arguments which seem to suggest that the Lieberman study is beyond reproach because Lieberman works for Harvard and the study was published in nature and I certainly find your intimation that unless an individual has a substantial publication record they should not be allowed to comment upon their perception of the quality of a paper lest they be seen as arrogant, rather odd.
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Old 6th January 2012, 12:29 PM
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