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That's From Justin Halpern's dad.

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Who? What? When? Why? Yeah? And? So? What?

"My mission drive is to open up my eyes, 'cause the wicked lies and all the sh!te you say..." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4NW5S1UTPQ

"Science is the antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition."

I beg to differ, the heel height of footwear is determined largely by the shape of the last. http://www.shoeschool.com/shoeschool...asts_what.html Got it?

As I intimated you can manipulate it a little with mid/ outersole configuration, but you then start altering toe-spring and heel pitch etc.

Here's a last for a high heel shoe, sure you could put a midsole with a 4mm heel-height differential on the lasted upper, but you'd end up with one hell of a toe-spring and a negative heel pitch at the heel seat. Shoe-manufacturers wouldn't do this because it screws up the geometry of the shoe.

You ever worked for a shoe-manufacurer and/ or in last design, Dana? Well I have, so you can keep your bullsh1t answers for someone else.

Attached Images

high_heel_last_3.jpg (77.3 KB, 78 views)

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Who? What? When? Why? Yeah? And? So? What?

"My mission drive is to open up my eyes, 'cause the wicked lies and all the sh!te you say..." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4NW5S1UTPQ

"Science is the antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition."

Simon, keep trying and I'll keep laughing. Are running shoes built on lasts made for high heels? I thought we were talking about running shoes. Just so you know, the bulk of running shoes are built on a flat last, your photo does remind me somewhat of the Nike Shox which actually do have a little bit of a slope to the last. The Shox are certainly the exception and are somewhat of a dead technology at this point.

Regarding your question, "what might be the advantage of a smaller heel height differential?" Is there a reason your question presumes there might be an ADVANTAGE to a smaller heel height differential? Do you think there is an advantage or is it just a poorly written question? If you can clarify the question, so that it makes sense, I'll give you an answer.

Dana

And you know that from working for a computer manufacturer? Wow. Here's a picture of a running shoe last, it isn't flat. Look at the posterior last and particularly the angle of the heel seat to the supporting surface, now rock this last forward in your mind such that the heel seat and supporting surface approach a parallel relationship. Yep, that'll be the heel height of the last. Here's some research which examined variation in last design from different running shoe manufacturers http://www.staffs.ac.uk/isb-fw/Abstr...RK_A_STUDY.pdf , note how there is variation in variable No. 21 between manufacturers, if they all used "flat" lasts there would be no variation. Indeed if the last bottom was "flat" we wouldn't have measure of, nor variance within variables No. 22 nor No. 44.

It's a perfectly written question. I wanted to know what might be the advantage of a smaller heel height differential. If I wanted to know what might be the advantage of a larger heel height differential, I'd have asked that. Are you just a poorly written question, Dana?

BTW, in my previous post, I attached an image of a high-heeled shoe last so that the concept was blatantly obvious, even to those who have no working knowledge of shoe last design. Since you had said: This statement is not true. The last shape governs the finished shoes geometry, which includes heel height.

Attached Images

running-shoe-last.jpg (18.8 KB, 73 views)

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Who? What? When? Why? Yeah? And? So? What?

"My mission drive is to open up my eyes, 'cause the wicked lies and all the sh!te you say..." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4NW5S1UTPQ

"Science is the antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition."

Simon, the study your referenced is well over 30 years old! In the world of running shoes, 30 yrs is an eternity! We are obviously not communicating, I think we have wasted enough of each others time on this.

You have twisted what I asked about your question so it is pointless for me to try to answer. You really don't want an answer as much as just a response. Being as predictable as you are, I know why you asked the question, too bad I'm not going to give you any satisfaction by responding to this one. Besides, the response I would give you would just frustrate you into spewing vulgar insults.

You have spent a lot of time studying and reading about the biomechanics of running but it is obvious to me that in spite of knowing the mechanics from what is written in books, you know little about running. It is obvious when you speak of running how little you really know. I doubt you even understand what I'm even talking about.

What I don't get is that you have spent so much time getting your degrees, then making a profession out treating and trying to heal people whom many of which are runners. Why the interest in running? You are not a runner and you obviously have a great disdain for runners, yet you've made a career out of healing them?
what? I can understand why prostituting yourself to help people you hate would make you angry. Maybe a new profession would help, how about making coffee?

Sincerely yours,

Dana

Again, you know that how? Because you work for IBM? I didn't spot a date on the paper actually. However, if we look at the reference list the oldest it can possibly be is from 1986, since this is the most recent reference in their list, the paper can be a maximum of 26 years old, Dana. So, that's not the same as "well over 30 years old". You might work for IBM, but you are clearly not gifted at computation.
Perhaps its the way you ask, Dana. Moreover, I thought I'd made it pretty clear: I'm not interested in your opinion.

Think what you like, you have no idea about me. Try running trails with no cruciate ligaments in your knee, up until this injury I ran three times a week. I've tried running with my Donjoy brace, but I find it gives me lower back pain. There, you've learned something new. I wasn't a brilliant runner, but I competed at county schools level in my youth and in adult-hood used it as part of my training regime. I was more gifted at high jump and pole-vault though as a kid. In adult-hood, I found team-sports more rewarding and focused on rugby through University and up until my injury 3 or so years ago. There, you've learned something new, Dana. I don't hate or have disdain for my patients, they sometimes frustrate me, they seldom make me angry as you intimate, and I've spent 25 years studying thousands of them and helping a good proportion of them, not just learning from books. As I've said before, it's just you I find objectionable, Dana. You and your n=1 anecdotes about yourself. I'll leave the coffee making and prostitution to you; I'm off for a pint.

__________________
Who? What? When? Why? Yeah? And? So? What?

"My mission drive is to open up my eyes, 'cause the wicked lies and all the sh!te you say..." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4NW5S1UTPQ

"Science is the antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition."

Simon:

Why even bother trying to have an intelligent discussion with him? He isn't worth your time. He is just here, like a few others, to insult the intelligence and frustrate the few people who have called him out on his utter lack of medical education and total lack of clinical experience in biomechanics and treating patients, even though he has said a number of times he will never post here again on Podiatry Arena. Don't even respond to him....he is a nobody, both in running and in biomechanics.

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Sincerely,

Kevin

**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College

e-mail: kevinakirby@comcast.net

Private Practice:
107 Scripps Drive, Suite 200
Sacramento, CA 95825 USA
My location

Voice: (916) 925-8111 Fax: (916) 925-8136
**************************************************

Claiming that most people heel strike is ignoring the human population as a whole. Having lived, worked and observed runners for 40 years across Asia, Africa, Europe, the US and Pacific rim my observation is that only one in seven humans on the planet (the affluent billion) heel strike "naturally."

I believe humans adapt to their environment, including a soft surface and altered geometry under their foot. Watch old film footage of runners before cushioned shoes were available, or talk to the old guys. No straight leg, over striding gaits ("heel striking") unless braking. Or go and live in a habitually barefoot culture and you will see overwhelmingly that they do not heel striking.

If you measure running economy, the heel strike style is very inefficient (mechanically and bio-mechanically.) There is nothing intrinsically wrong or bad about engaging the ground with the heel, it's the loading sequence and motor patterns that have the big effects.

Thank you Mr. Barefoot Runner #3098 for coming on to this website expressly intended for medical professionals and giving us your opinions.

OK, Craig, time to rename Podiatry Arena to.....

Barefoot/Minimalist Know-Nothing Runner Blogsite

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Sincerely,

Kevin

**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College

e-mail: kevinakirby@comcast.net

Private Practice:
107 Scripps Drive, Suite 200
Sacramento, CA 95825 USA
My location

Voice: (916) 925-8111 Fax: (916) 925-8136
**************************************************

Ian, in quotes below is the sort of brilliance that was written yesterday in this very thread by one of the "Medical Professionals" on this website that Kevin is referring to. Kevin, another self described "medical professional" was so enthused about this line that he is going to do it the honor of making it his 2012 quote of the year.

"Sure, I've run on trails Dana. I just don't find the need to masturbate over this in the same way that you seem to need to."

These guys are actually proud of themselves, incredible.

In reality, for anyone who finds the need to call themselves a "medical professional" is nothing more than an MD wanna be who failed to make it to being a real doctor.

Kevin will also tell you 20 times over the next few weeks that he ran a 2:48 marathon over 30 years ago so that qualifies him to be a runner.

In reality, Kevin can't run more than a few miles at a time at this point without becoming injured. A runner who lives in the past is nothing but a runner wanna be in the present.

Dana

You obviously missed the research on how many barefoot runners heel strike. How do you explain that?
You obviously missed all the research that showed the opposite. How do you explain that?

How come so many elite runners heel strike and can run really fast?

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Craig Payne
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________
Follow me on Twitter | Run Junkie
God put me on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things - right now I am so far behind, I will never die.

An understanding of lower limb biomechanics is not needed; common sense will do.
One advantage might be that the shoe with lower heel is more stable over uneven ground, i.e a lesser tendency for the ankle to turn; try running in high heels to see how the heel hight can affect stability.

Another advantage might be that a higher heel will influence the first point of contact with the ground. Which could of course be good or bad for the runner (remember we are talking about 'might' here).
And just in case there is still some dispute over heel height influencing foot strike, we only have to imagine a runner who normally lands, shall we say flat-footed (by that I mean the forefoot and the heel land at the same time or thereabouts). Stick a protrusion on their heel and it's obviously going to be comparatively closer to ground approaching impact than the forefoot and hence impact sooner.

Isn't there also some research out there about the effect of spending time in shoes with elevated heels: shortening Achilles tendons and calf muscles? Which I guess only becomes a problem when changing to a lower heel. Perhaps now, as manufacturers begin lowering heel height in shoes, some runners might discover the disadvantages of being accustomed to higher heels.

Finally, if there are no advantages to lower heels then why are manufacturers reducing heel heights? I guess it could be purely market driven, but I suspect they might have been questioning the need for higher heels.

And here we have barefoot runner No. 3099. Next... Check his blog-site. How's the diet book selling?

__________________
Who? What? When? Why? Yeah? And? So? What?

"My mission drive is to open up my eyes, 'cause the wicked lies and all the sh!te you say..." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4NW5S1UTPQ

"Science is the antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition."

For the record (but obviously not Mr Spooner who will decide for himself), probably less than 0.1% my running has been without shoes in the last year or so.

No worries Graham, according to Simon, he only finds me as being objectionable. Consequently, I feel like the Podiatry Arena's running celebrity.

Dana, who tried running barefoot for the first time a few weeks ago and couldn't make 10 meters.

Hi Craig, thank you for your honest, civil & professional response – much appreciated... compared to the recent unprofessional trash talk spooned out by another (I’ll address this later!)

Yes Craig, this is where views can become speculative (which is needed to establish ideas/hypotheses)... there also can be a fine line between terms such as “influencing”, “discourage” & “encouraging” when talking about the effects heel differential has in running within the masses/population. I think we can both agree that more research in this area is needed. However, I am sure that shoes of higher heel differential influence gait & strike patterns & hence subsequently encourages a resultant trait to become entrenched in acquired running technique. The body is an amazing structure & we can quickly differentiate (i.e. via proprioception) characteristics (i.e. heel pitch, midsole stiffness) of what is attached on our feet & adjust our function accordingly... sometimes this may not be conducive to the long term effects of running well being (i.e. exacerbating forces which may encourage injury threshold to be met sooner rather than later).


Now like I said, acquired foot strike patterns are not just influenced by shoes (as you have also alluded to in the above quote i.e. “doesn’t discourage heel striking”), particularly if there is a predisposition to say heel striking via another influencing factor. However, I believe the foot was designed to function in a plantigrade fashion relative to the environment/surface. Unfortunately we also have evolution creep into this topic & even if one was inclined to believe this perspective, the same reasoning still applies with relation to the natural anatomical nature of the foot. Why then the need to raise the heel in the running shoe. I think we both (at least) are still awaiting for the official answer to this. Putting aside the reason you gave in your previous post (i.e. protection for heel strikers), I am sure I have read somewhere that it was the result of accommodating for ankle equinus... why you would want to accommodate for a fault that can be easily addressed via exercises... & then incorporating it in the design of shoes for the masses is beyond me. Either way, whether it is to provide heel cushioning for heel strikers &/or accommodating for the apparent ankle equinus of the masses, I think the future of its inclusion needs to be reviewed (hence why we are now getting more & more models with lower heel-forefoot profiles). We humans need to also focus & learn to understand the state of our own physical conditioning & address this via appropriate exercises... then allow ourselves to naturally self select the appropriate gait/foot strike patterns without excess influence from foot attire... we may then start to see a change in the status quo.


That sounds good. I know it depends on the type of injury (as well as their history). Do you think these cases could have also favourably responded to say a NIKE-Free 3.0 (4mm drop), Saucony-Kinvara (4mm), Brooks-Pure Flow (4mm), New Balance-730 (3mm) or the zero drop range including the New Balance Minimus or Merrell Glove range? We all should know that poor footwear can lead to injury. Barefoot proponents will sometimes like to compare injury stats to those of the 70’s when the shoe was of a lower profile with lesser cushioning & apparent less injury. However, the runner profile of today is different to what it was back then – the average 70’s runner would have had a lower BMI, more running experience, better conditioned physiology - we can also look at the overall faster median times of that era which should give us a clue as to the nature of running back then as opposed to today. It would seem that some of today’s footwear characteristics (gimmicks) are the result of accommodating for running's average decline of conditioning... i.e. more cushioning to accommodate for the heavier runner & then we have the higher heel-forefoot pitch/differential. I sometimes train in Centennial Park in Sydney & sit a watch all the different sizes, shapes, techniques & shoes people are running with (quite interesting)... & can imagine the potential forces the above characters/traits (i.e. heavy weight, poor posture) could be invoking to adverse stress & potential injury.


Yes I agree, hence why I am in favour of some element of midsole protection/cushioning based on the extent of harder unforgiving surfaces prevalent today. However, I strongly believe the adverse effect on “primordial foot function” has been the result of environment, physiology & shoe design... to varying extent between individuals (i.e. body type, running conditioning).


I have actually read a good article relating to this recently – been reading a fair bit of late & hence forget exactly the source but it stated similar to the above. Yet it once again points out the issues relating to physical conditioning (i.e. poor for the intended activity) whilst still doesn’t rule out the potential influence of adverse shoe structure characteristics to further add ingredients into the injury pot for further ambiguity as to the root causes of injury to individuals. Should footwear design compensate for our laziness & poor body conditioning... & could these compensation components lead to other problems?


Yes, this type of study may have merit. But then we have the shoe wearing history of the individuals which may be an influencing factor (with regard to adaptation to the minimalist)... particularly if the study done in an industrial nation. The study would probably be more valid within schoolchildren in say Kenya or Ethiopia where body type (weight & physiology) is somewhat similar as well as footwear history (this reminds me of that study & subsequent photos of that barefoot related paper published in ‘Nature’ a little while ago).

Just this week I have advised three running related patients to head towards the low heel differential/minimalist option... it’s a risk I know – for both them & me (which is a whole topic in itself).

However, what we may need is something called a paradigm shift... if we have been taught one way we have built our learning on a certain premise but maybe we need to come from a different premise. I believe this is certainly needed within the current health care system & nutrition... yet maybe we need a paradigm shift in our thinking with regard to running footwear. There is a saying... “To get the results you have never had, you have to do the things you have never done”... this may somewhat apply to the case of running injury rates & running footwear. Sometimes what we have been taught or dictated to us (i.e. from footwear industry trends) is not always truth... if there are ongoing issues still present over many years despite the apparent millions poured into research then we need to question why. The primordial anatomical foot structure & intended function should be the premise for footwear design... individual physiological issue should be the target of therapy intervention, needed to address specific areas of conditioning via exercises which also may include individualized support if need via a custom related device such as an orthotic to address conditions not effectively addressed via conditioning/exercises... hence the importance of Podiatry in prescribing appropriate conditioning modules & if needed appropriate supportive devices to aid in efficiency/economy.

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- alias: Matthew Thomas - Podiatrist.
Back On Track Podiatry.

"To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift": Steve Prefontaine.

I have had thought whether to address this issue or not – but it needs to be done!
The above post (& there has been a long history of it by Spooner) with subsequent posts of the above nature following on this thread is based on his usual ad hominen attack – personal abuse/attacks in the form of belittling a forum member’s personal character in an attempt to invalidate a view point (a logical/informal fallacy). This is poor conduct – period! Furthermore, the use of foul innuendos (which has been modified via a series of ‘X’ in above quote) is a disgrace & inappropriate based on the professional nature this forum aspires to. It is not the first time that this same culprit has used this nature of attack via the use of foul innuendos – once again alluding to the same region of male physiology (makes me wonder if there is some subconscious complex here).

The above post (& subsequent natured posts) are a disgrace to the profession & to this forum!

I thought you would know better Kevin. I remember not that long ago that you rebuked inappropriate dialogue (yes, with the very same culprit as above involved yet again) on another thread on the basis of forum & professional integrity (if I get the time I might try & find it)... yet here you endorse it. Is it because it is directed at someone you have issue with &/or don’t like. Whilst you may not always agree with what Dana has to say, he does have valid running related information & does not incite justification for the sort of ad hominen attack of the above nature. This is not only mean spirited but also inappropriate for the integrity of this forum & the profession of which I know you hold dear... & please don’t tell me that Dana’s presence here is adversely affecting the integrity of the forum – it isn’t, but a different perspective to yours. It is the above conduct & language that will have greater impact on the integrity of the forum than that of anyone with a differing view on running & subsequent running shoes.

Now am I going to cop the above natured conduct as well?

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- alias: Matthew Thomas - Podiatrist.
Back On Track Podiatry.

"To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift": Steve Prefontaine.

Mathew:

I thought that Dr. Spooner's posting was funny....and after spending already 12 hours in airports and airplanes on my way to Manchester by the time I made that comment....I needed a good laugh. Sorry I offended you by saying that I thought that Simon Spooner's comment was funny, but his remark perfectly summed up exactly what I thought about the person he was commenting on.

Have you ever met Simon? He is a fun guy to be around. Too bad he isn't lecturing here again with me again in Manchester this year since his presence would certainly add to the enjoyment of the meeting for me.

However, Mathew, I am not the moderator of Podiatry Arena. If you don't like what is here on Podiatry Arena, then I suggest you complain to one of the moderators....that is not my job. I am nothing more than another contributor here on Podiatry Arena. I control nothing on this forum, contrary to what you imply.

Maybe you should offer to help Craig Payne to edit the content of Podiatry Arena to remove posts you find objectionable. I'm sure he would appreciate the help.

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Sincerely,

Kevin

**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College

e-mail: kevinakirby@comcast.net

Private Practice:
107 Scripps Drive, Suite 200
Sacramento, CA 95825 USA
My location

Voice: (916) 925-8111 Fax: (916) 925-8136
**************************************************

Thank you Kevin for your response.

Yes I understand the predicament you were in - airport stop-overs can be boring & frustrating. I can also understand that this predicament may have clouded your judgement on this matter... yes, we all need a good laugh under trying circumstances... but probably wise not to endorse bad conduct/behaviour on a public forum... this has the potential to direct the thread southward with the opponent wanting to respond to such conduct... down the track a moderator then comes in & shuts the thread down.

No, I have not personally met Simon... my response was purely relating to the nature of content he typed under his banner. That's it - it's there for all to see. There has also been similar natured content in the past - hence why I also brought him up on it on this incident. One's personal association with another should not influence one's standards & subsequent views - as hard as that may be at times. Yes, I understand you are both friends.

Kevin, I did not imply that you are or should have a role of a moderator... however, a role of an influential professional role model maybe. That said, as I stated above, you however have commented on this forum relating to conduct issues in the past (& with the person in question).

I appreciate Craig Payne's effort here in maintaining a valuable forum. Hence, I will not bother him or other moderators further with complaints by me - particularly when I can address the issue myself via my personal opinion on the matter. In fact I think the material should stay... it serves as testimony to the nature of character present on this forum.

Unfortunately, I am way too busy to help Craig out on this forum. I can imagine that Craig is extremely busy also hence see no point burdening his load any further... which means we all should play a part in helping the running of this valuable forum with appropriate conduct/attitude.

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- alias: Matthew Thomas - Podiatrist.
Back On Track Podiatry.

"To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift": Steve Prefontaine.

For the record Matthew, I find the content you type "under your banner" equally objectionable and your holier than thou attitude, condescending. If I'd have known you were going to get upset by the word "masturbation" I'd have used "wank" instead. Neither of which words are blocked by this forum, by the way.

Have a nice day.

Manchester, so much to answer for, Kevin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2Mi995ggFU

__________________
Who? What? When? Why? Yeah? And? So? What?

"My mission drive is to open up my eyes, 'cause the wicked lies and all the sh!te you say..." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4NW5S1UTPQ

"Science is the antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition."

Nice posting, Mathew. You are a good man.

Happy running!

__________________
Sincerely,

Kevin

**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College

e-mail: kevinakirby@comcast.net

Private Practice:
107 Scripps Drive, Suite 200
Sacramento, CA 95825 USA
My location

Voice: (916) 925-8111 Fax: (916) 925-8136
**************************************************

Thank you Simon for your civil response (putting aside the YouTube content posted ). I am sorry you find the perceived "holier than thou attitude condescending". I can honestly assure you it is in no way intended to be. We all have our faults (me included) & I am continually reminded of a saying... "those in glass houses should not throw stones". Be that as it may, I gave the reason for my concern in posts 47 & 49. I think it just makes for a more conducive Podiatry Arena experience.

I've noticed you like music Simon... here is probably a more appropriate YouTube link under the circumstances... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YBr5P9rJ-8

You have yourself a nice day also.

__________________
- alias: Matthew Thomas - Podiatrist.
Back On Track Podiatry.

"To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift": Steve Prefontaine.

Mathew:

My lovely wife, Pam, and I just visited the Manchester Art Gallery on my one day off here. We saw a painting there that I thought you might like. It is called "The Chariot Race" (1882) by Alexander von Wagner (1838-1919). The caption at the museum said that the painting may have been inspired by the novel "Ben Hur" by Lew Wallace (1880). This is the best painting I have ever seen of a chariot race...made me think of you.

Attached Images

Alexander von Wagner The Chariot Race.jpg (287.2 KB, 64 views)

__________________
Sincerely,

Kevin

**************************************************
Kevin A. Kirby, DPM
Adjunct Associate Professor
Department of Applied Biomechanics
California School of Podiatric Medicine at Samuel Merritt College

e-mail: kevinakirby@comcast.net

Private Practice:
107 Scripps Drive, Suite 200
Sacramento, CA 95825 USA
My location

Voice: (916) 925-8111 Fax: (916) 925-8136
**************************************************

Thanks Kevin for posting that. Haven't seen this one... looks pretty impressive.

It must be a good feeling being in a position where you can tour the world lecturing on subjects you enjoy & feel passionate about... whilst at the same time having the opportunity to experience the above culture with your wife. All the best with the lectures & your travels.

To put the painting in perspective for those who may not be aware of the scene, here is the chariot race from the most popular re-enactment of Lew Wallace's book - the 1959 film Ben-Hur...

__________________
- alias: Matthew Thomas - Podiatrist.
Back On Track Podiatry.

"To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift": Steve Prefontaine.

Matt, thanks. Some thoughts I have regarding Simon and Kevin. First, I am not mad at or upset with either of them. I believe there are reasons that drive there reaction towards me that I understand. I might be wrong about what the actual reasons are but that is OK, they work for me.

Simon truly has animosity towards me and I know I bother him to no end. Simon has a very strong interest in running, has focused his studies on the biomechanics of running, has made a practice of healing runners and has shown a genuine interest in running. What Simon doesn’t have is running experience and Simon is smart enough to know that in spite of how extensive his background that without experience, he is missing a major piece of the puzzle. To truly understand running is to experience it. It genuinely bothers Simon that someone like me who does not have a “medical” background knows as much as I do about something Simon is so interested in.

When I’m having a debate, as soon as I’ve had enough of Simon, I simply push the button that sends Simon into a tail spin spewing vulgar insults. Once that happens, Simon completely discredits himself as a professional and discredits everything he has said. Those reading may not agree with what I’ve had to say but they certainly aren’t going to take anything Simon has had to say as having any worth at all. When Kevin jumps in to support Simon’s lack of professionalism, I see it at a bonus because Kevin is also discrediting himself.

There is another side that I have some concern about and often hesitate before I push the Simon button. That is that for someone as obviously intelligent as Simon is, there must be some major issue or issues that I don’t see that drives his complete lack of self restraint. I can only speculate about what is causing such great anger and unhappiness but whatever it is, it must be pretty serious.

For Kevin, I believe it goes much deeper than just a difference of opinion. For that matter, I think that Kevin agrees with far more of what I have to say than his stubbornness will allow him to divulge. If you look at Kevin’s opinions on minimal shoes and shoes in general from the middle of 2010 when I started writing on this forum until now, you can clearly see him move towards the direction of what I’ve been saying all along. No one has to take my word for it, just read what Kevin has written on the subject over the last few years then read what I have written, the trend is obvious. In the past I have had ugly debates on the forum with Kevin only to hear him parroting my point of view to someone a few weeks later. Kevin will never agree or admit that what I have just said is true and that is fine, both Kevin and I know the influence I have had on Kevin’s thinking.

What bothers Kevin about me also has to do with running experience, it doesn’t have to do with what I know from experience but that I am still running at a level that Kevin had to abandon since the early 80’s. When Kevin talks about running, it is about running in the 1970’s and early 1980’s. There is a huge gap of 30 years from the running experience which Kevin draws from. I certainly know what it is like to be born a runner, I don’t know what it is like to be a runner who has had an extremely short running life and can no longer run. I would imagine it is enormously frustrating to not be able to run more that a few miles at a time on more than a few days per week. Here I come talking about how far I’ve run in terms of laps around the world rather than in miles or Kilometers. I’m sure this drives Kevin nuts. I might be wrong about this and that’s OK, it is just my understanding of Kevin’s reaction towards me.

Dana

What a charming character you have just shown yourself to be. Dana, the amateur runner is now an expert in psycho-analysis too. Is there no end to this man's talent, or even a start? Does the above post really add to this thread? Is it intentionally inflammatory? Is it "troll" behaviour from someone who is not "a foot health professional" and thus, has no reason to be writing here in the first place? I'll let you decide. Personally, I shan't rise on this occasion. Suffice to say that I think that Dana's problems stem from his childhood; him being taunted in the play-ground in the way he was, just because his parents gave him a girls name. But unlike Dana, who works at IBM making the coffee, I'm no expert in psycho-analysis via the internet. What say you Matthew?

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Who? What? When? Why? Yeah? And? So? What?

"My mission drive is to open up my eyes, 'cause the wicked lies and all the sh!te you say..." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4NW5S1UTPQ

"Science is the antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition."

I think we've got to the stage now where we should all avoid pushing anybodies buttons. We all by now should know where either of us pretty much stands on the subject. I think it might be best if we put our personal differences aside, take a step back & take a few of these babies...



... & wait for the research to catch up to the discussion... (that is Chlorella & Spirulina smoothies).

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- alias: Matthew Thomas - Podiatrist.
Back On Track Podiatry.

"To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift": Steve Prefontaine.

Here's a picture of a fence.... Freud, what do you think?

Attached Images

timber_fence.jpg (26.4 KB, 55 views)

__________________
Who? What? When? Why? Yeah? And? So? What?

"My mission drive is to open up my eyes, 'cause the wicked lies and all the sh!te you say..." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4NW5S1UTPQ

"Science is the antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition."

I've noticed you have been editing your post (# 56) Simon since its initial application... adding further taunts.

Anyway, Johnny Cash wrote a song about the issue...



... & here is the San Quentin version...



According to Mr Cash... good qualities can come from the experience.

__________________
- alias: Matthew Thomas - Podiatrist.
Back On Track Podiatry.

"To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift": Steve Prefontaine.

Yes, that's right. I felt it added comedy value. When someone writes something which is clearly intended to cause provocation and/ or hurt, like Dana did, which you appear to be conveniently turning a blind eye to, I find the best way of dealing with that is to see the comedic value within it. You see, when Dana couldn't answer my questions nor evidence his own contentions, by his own admission he then attempted to divert the discussion and provoke an emotional response in me such that he might be seen in a better light than me by others reading this. Despite the fact that he could not hold his own within the academic debate. You appear to have fallen for this tactic, Matthew. Sure, I use a wide vocabulary which might not suit you, this doesn't make me angry or emotionally disturbed as Dana would paint it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_osQvkeNRM Read between the lines to see the academic argument which was taking place; that which Dana attempted to divert and appears to have achieved. Why would he do this if he felt he had the upper hand in the debate? Dana has gone from someone who has knowledge of last design in footwear, when he quickly realised that I had greater knowledge than he, and has now positioned himself as someone with expertise in psychic, psycho-analysis, of which he has none. He works for IBM and is an amateur runner. This is funny. So, the comedic value is in playing him at his own game and in likening a "Freudian consultation". I suppose if I have to explain it to you, it'll be lost. Dana hasn't made me angry nor loose sight of the argument; he has at last shown the true nature of his personality in public, for which I thank him. I have studied the work of psycho-analysts during my teacher training and was most inspired by the work of Carl Rogers, so I'm happy to play along here. Yet, I guess its the sanctimonious nature I really object to. But most of all it's 'cause of the wicked lies..." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4NW5S1UTPQ
What do you make of the fence, Matthew? Do you see a barrier or a seat?

__________________
Who? What? When? Why? Yeah? And? So? What?

"My mission drive is to open up my eyes, 'cause the wicked lies and all the sh!te you say..." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4NW5S1UTPQ

"Science is the antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition."