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Plantar Fasciitis and the anti-orthosis, Minimalist Shoe Message

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  #1  
Old 30th October 2012, 09:39 PM
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Default Plantar Fasciitis and the anti-orthosis, Minimalist Shoe Message

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It has come to my attention that a family practice physician from West Virginia, Mark Cucuzzella, MD, who also owns a Minimalist Running Shoe Store in West Virginia called Two Rivers Treads, has been suggesting, in almost identical language to Blaise Dubois, that runners don't ever need foot orthoses since all injuries can be healed by using minimalist shoes and strengthening the foot muscles.

For starters, you may want to read Cucuzzella's rather odd article on plantar fasciitis, where he claims that "The only way that you can actually fix plantar fasciitis is to address the root cause… weak foot muscles" and "And finally do not wear shoes that shorten your PF or place your foot in all-day-dysfunction: wear minimalist footwear!" (no possible conflict of interest here.......Cucuzzella owns a minimalist running shoe store)

Recently, Simon Bartold had a debate with Cucuzella on foot orthoses, running biomechanics and running shoe research at the AMAA's 21st Annual Sports Medicine Symposium at the Marine Corps Marathon in Arlington Virginia. In speaking to Simon about the debate, Simon had some very interesting things to say about the level of evidence and the reliance upon scientific evidence that Cucuzzella uses when giving lectures on the subjects of proper running biomechanics, running shoe wear, foot orthoses and running injuries.

I am hoping Simon will come onto this thread to talk about his debate with Cucuzzella and to find out if Cucuzzella had any scientific research to back up his "minimalist shoe" views on running and running injuries.
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  #2  
Old 31st October 2012, 12:26 AM
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Default Re: Mark Cucuzzella, Plantar Fasciitis and his Anti-orthosis, Minimalist Shoe Message

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Originally Posted by Kevin Kirby View Post
"The only way that you can actually fix plantar fasciitis is to address the root cause… weak foot muscles" and "And finally do not wear shoes that shorten your PF or place your foot in all-day-dysfunction: wear minimalist footwear!".
...and there is NOT ONE shred of evidence to support either claim. People making those sorts of silly nonsensical claims do not let something like little facts get in the way of what they want to promote.

He obviously missed the study on using minimalist footwear to treat plantar fasciitis in which several in the minimalist group actually had to drop out of the study as their pain got so bad! I wonder how they can explain that little fact?

... BUT, you know what will happen? They will just claim that Kevin is just as biased as he is trying to "sell orthotics" ... but won't actually address the issue of what this study found nor all the evidence that foot orthotics actually work in plantar fasciitis! I wonder how he can defend not adhering to or promoting 'evidence based practice'. The minimalist cheer squad are good at taking pot shots and using the ad hominem argument and not actually addressing the evidence; as well as diverting attention away from what is actually being asked .... so I look forward to their responses to prove me right, yet again.

I have seen over a dozen cases of plantar fasciitis now in minimalist/barefoot runners; look around the barefoot running forums - how come there are some so many asking for advice on plantar fasciitis - I wonder how he explains that simple inconvenient fact? I actually, at this stage, do not believe that plantar fasciitis is related to 'running form' (other conditions are).

I always go where the evidence takes me. If the evidence say minimalism is actually better for plantar fasciitis, then I will start implementing it - at the moment the published scientific evidence actually says the opposite. I would not exactly say that I am biased; I run in minimalist shoes and I do use 'minimalism'/forefoot striking for some conditions - as the evidence tells me it is probably better for that person.
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  #3  
Old 31st October 2012, 02:55 AM
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Default Re: Mark Cucuzzella, Plantar Fasciitis and his Anti-orthosis, Minimalist Shoe Message

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Kirby View Post
It has come to my attention that a family practice physician from West Virginia, Mark Cucuzzella, MD, who also owns a Minimalist Running Shoe Store in West Virginia called Two Rivers Treads, has been suggesting, in almost identical language to Blaise Dubois, that runners don't ever need foot orthoses since all injuries can be healed by using minimalist shoes and strengthening the foot muscles.

For starters, you may want to read Cucuzzella's rather odd article on plantar fasciitis, where he claims that "The only way that you can actually fix plantar fasciitis is to address the root cause… weak foot muscles" and "And finally do not wear shoes that shorten your PF or place your foot in all-day-dysfunction: wear minimalist footwear!" (no possible conflict of interest here.......Cucuzzella owns a minimalist running shoe store)

Recently, Simon Bartold had a debate with Cucuzella on foot orthoses, running biomechanics and running shoe research at the AMAA's 21st Annual Sports Medicine Symposium at the Marine Corps Marathon in Arlington Virginia. In speaking to Simon about the debate, Simon had some very interesting things to say about the level of evidence and the reliance upon scientific evidence that Cucuzzella uses when giving lectures on the subjects of proper running biomechanics, running shoe wear, foot orthoses and running injuries.

I am hoping Simon will come onto this thread to talk about his debate with Cucuzzella and to find out if Cucuzzella had any scientific research to back up his "minimalist shoe" views on running and running injuries.
Kevin

There are many of my female customers who continually wear minimalist shoes like the light pumps or dolly shoes that have been fashion for a few years and they come in complaining of PFitis. Those who don't want to change their shoe type and or do not chose to have orthoses just put up with their continually worsening foot pain and complain about it each time they come in for routine chiropody. At some point tho, around a year or so, the foot pain will resolve, probably because they stop doing so much walking and off load the foot by limping. Some time later tho it comes back again once they resume normal activities. This scenario does not fit well with the proposal that minimalist shoes help resolve or inhibit plantar fasciitis.

Regards Dave
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Old 31st October 2012, 09:26 AM
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Default Re: Mark Cucuzzella, Plantar Fasciitis and his Anti-orthosis, Minimalist Shoe Message

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Kevin

There are many of my female customers who continually wear minimalist shoes like the light pumps or dolly shoes that have been fashion for a few years and they come in complaining of PFitis. Those who don't want to change their shoe type and or do not chose to have orthoses just put up with their continually worsening foot pain and complain about it each time they come in for routine chiropody. At some point tho, around a year or so, the foot pain will resolve, probably because they stop doing so much walking and off load the foot by limping. Some time later tho it comes back again once they resume normal activities. This scenario does not fit well with the proposal that minimalist shoes help resolve or inhibit plantar fasciitis.

Regards Dave
I have seen literally hundreds of patients who report that their symptoms of plantar fasciitis are improved when wearing shoes with higher heel-height differential and also hundreds of patients who developed plantar fasciitis from walking in flip-flops or other low heeled shoes with minimal to no arch support over the past 27+ years.

I am getting very tired of these people speaking out like authorities when they are ignorant of the facts and are equally ignorant of previous research that disproves their claims. The angry podiatrist is becoming even angrier.....
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  #5  
Old 31st October 2012, 10:20 AM
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Default Re: Mark Cucuzzella, Plantar Fasciitis and his Anti-orthosis, Minimalist Shoe Message

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Originally Posted by Kevin Kirby View Post
I have seen literally hundreds of patients who report that their symptoms of plantar fasciitis are improved when wearing shoes with higher heel-height differential and also hundreds of patients who developed plantar fasciitis from walking in flip-flops or other low heeled shoes with minimal to no arch support over the past 27+ years.
Exactly my expereince Kevin. One ortho foot doc I know calls summer and the advent of flip-flop season "feeding time". Given that and what Craig describes above you have to wonder why a physician devotes so much time and energy promoting the very thing that appears to increase PF cases in our offices when it is not a recommended treatment protocol for PF by any professional organizational body or practice guideline.
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Old 31st October 2012, 11:08 AM
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Default Re: Mark Cucuzzella, Plantar Fasciitis and his Anti-orthosis, Minimalist Shoe Message

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Originally Posted by David Wedemeyer View Post
Exactly my expereince Kevin. One ortho foot doc I know calls summer and the advent of flip-flop season "feeding time". Given that and what Craig describes above you have to wonder why a physician devotes so much time and energy promoting the very thing that appears to increase PF cases in our offices when it is not a recommended treatment protocol for PF by any professional organizational body or practice guideline.
Indeed. Maybe we should be more irresponsible and support his cause to promote minimalism .... if this was really about the $ and us wanting more business, then we would be doing that. However, I am more ethical and responsible than that.
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Old 31st October 2012, 03:52 PM
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Default Re: Mark Cucuzzella, Plantar Fasciitis and his Anti-orthosis, Minimalist Shoe Message

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Originally Posted by Craig Payne View Post
Indeed. Maybe we should be more irresponsible and support his cause to promote minimalism .... if this was really about the $ and us wanting more business, then we would be doing that. However, I am more ethical and responsible than that.
Craig their couterintuitive arguments baffle me as well. You can teach ethics but you cannot force them on anyone sadly.
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Old 31st October 2012, 03:54 PM
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Default Re: Plantar Fasciitis and the anti-orthosis, Minimalist Shoe Message

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Originally Posted by Kevin Kirby View Post
I am hoping Simon will come onto this thread to talk about his debate with Cucuzzella and to find out if Cucuzzella had any scientific research to back up his "minimalist shoe" views on running and running injuries.
Kevin.. cheers from a hurricane ravaged NYC..
I did indeed debate Dr. Mark Cucazella in Washington D.C. over the weekend, although I am still scratching my head over exactly what it was.
It went something like this.. I gave a 1/2 hour presentation outlining the reasons athletes get injured,what they do about it once they are injured, where minimalism and barefoot fit in, discussed form and the current concepts of FF vs MF vs RF, and tried to piece it all together in relation to footwear for the runner. Every part of this presentation was referenced with the most up to date literature I could access, and none of my presentation was based on my own opinion or anecdote.
Mark then took the podium, and for the first 10 minutes showed a random video from the 1979 of a bunch of New Zealand farmers who became runners, with a few snaps of Arthur Lydiard. He then spent the next 15 minutes showing videos of himself running, some barechested which was exciting, with the obvious assumption that the audience would immedaitely make the connection between the way Mark runs, the New Zealand farmers ran, injury and "form". Unfortunately, no-one got it at all.
You must remember this was a formal presentation to a medical audience, all doctors, immediately after a couple of good quality evidence-based lectures on medical management of emergencies during a marathon and exercise induced leg pain.
To say I was a little non-plussed would be an extreme understatement...The final 10 or so minutes of his alloted time telling the audience of his own personal opinions in relation to the issues, and he illustrated this by pulling out of a bag 20 or so used pairs of shoes.. all minimalist.. that he lined up along a table. really quite bizarre!
The interseting thing is that Mark has formed a "syndicate' with a bunch of guys, Biase being one of them, who will only recommend minimalist of barefoot. One of the syncophants is Nick Campitelli, who has called Mark "one of the greatest contemporary running educator of our time!".. I did not observe this unfortunately..
These are some of the things the great educator has said:
"Maximum pronation actually occurs when your heel is off the ground, so the foot’s role in this is critical."
"Runners (with or without shoes) who have strong feet have the ability to control the motion just fine."
"For most modern-day runners, spending a lifetime in stiff, overly cushioned, and supportive shoes has diminished their natural pronation control."
"Why is natural pronation control better? The foot is the magic spring that adds elastic recoil to our stride. This is free energy. When the foot is constricted by a rigid shoe, it cannot work as a spring and you need to apply more muscle to the stride. More muscle use is equated to more fatigue; and consequently there’s potential for more injury."
"once you go minimal donate the traditional shoes. your body will reject them. like eating crap after you have discovered real food."
His associated website.. Natural Running Centre makes the following observations:
" if the runner has suffered from patellar tendinitis, shin splints, or IT band syndrome, the pain always diminishes or is eliminated when the runner switches to a minimal shoe and a midfoot strike."... sheeeeez..
'I know there are people, most with perfectly good intentions, who believe that there are different ways of running “correctly”, each way unique to the individual, and that running form cannot really be taught or changed. There is an idea that running form is natural to the individual, but not the species, and any attempt to change an individual’s form is equal to forcing an unnatural change that will be detrimental to health and performance. Unfortunately traditional running footwear always alters a runner’s form."
" At least we have science on our side."
"Overpronation (or lack of supination) as with most symptoms, is often treated improperly as the root cause of a problem, especially by those eager to sell runners orthotics or “anti-pronation” shoes."
"orthotics or motion-control footwear can now become the reason for a new injury as normal gait is disrupted and shock is artificially altered."
"How do you know if you really overpronate? There are a few things you can do as a self test. First, look at the shoes you’ve been walking or running in for some time. If the outside of the heels are excessively worn out, then that is a sure sign you overpronate.".... WTF!!!
anyway.. I could go on like this all day.. you all get the gist of it.

The bottom line is that like nearly everyone, Mark has something to sell.. minimalist footwear at his minimalist store. The thing that REALLY concerns me is that is see a trend developing that was openly espoused by Mark.. that ALL children of ALL ages should go barefoot or minimalist for ALL activities whenver they can.

I just have to wonder if there is panic setting in at the demise of minimalism, and this is one last desperate attempt to sell footwear.

You be the judge..
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Old 31st October 2012, 04:05 PM
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Default Re: Mark Cucuzzella, Plantar Fasciitis and his Anti-orthosis, Minimalist Shoe Message

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Originally Posted by Craig Payne View Post
Indeed. Maybe we should be more irresponsible and support his cause to promote minimalism .... if this was really about the $ and us wanting more business, then we would be doing that. However, I am more ethical and responsible than that.
I have joked for years with patients that I own stock in companies that make bad shoes for people. That way I can put my kids through college I tell them!
Cheers
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Old 31st October 2012, 04:23 PM
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Default Re: Mark Cucuzzella, Plantar Fasciitis and his Anti-orthosis, Minimalist Shoe Message

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Originally Posted by toomoon View Post
and for the first 10 minutes showed a random video from the 1979 of a bunch of New Zealand farmers who became runners, with a few snaps of Arthur Lydiard. He then spent the next 15 minutes showing videos of himself running, some barechested which was exciting, with the obvious assumption that the audience would immedaitely make the connection between the way Mark runs, the New Zealand farmers ran, injury and "form". Unfortunately, no-one got it at all.
You must remember this was a formal presentation to a medical audience, all doctors, immediately after a couple of good quality evidence-based lectures on medical management of emergencies during a marathon and exercise induced leg pain.
So it was the usual all rhetoric and propaganda and no substance?
I would have been interested to see that. I knew Arthur Lydiard and talked to him many times about a lot of these issues. I have seen many people allegedly "quote" him and make statements about what he would have said about some things. I knew him well enough to know that he would not have said that! I also used to run in a 'Lydiard' branded and made running shoe in the late 70's and was a round for a few years (and guess what? ... it was NOT minimalist!). I would also be keen to know the names of the "New Zealand farmers" in the video. If they are who I think they are, then they did NOT have an injury free history!
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I have joked for years with patients that I own stock in companies that make bad shoes for people. That way I can put my kids through college I tell them
It is the shill fallacy. I love it when people use it to counter what I say, as it just proves me right.
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Old 31st October 2012, 04:33 PM
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Default Re: Mark Cucuzzella, Plantar Fasciitis and his Anti-orthosis, Minimalist Shoe Message

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So it was the usual all rhetoric and propaganda and no substance?
I would have been interested to see that. I knew Arthur Lydiard and talked to him many times about a lot of these issues. I have seen many people allegedly "quote" him and make statements about what he would have said about some things. I knew him well enough to know that he would not have said that! I also used to run in a 'Lydiard' branded and made running shoe in the late 70's and was a round for a few years (and guess what? ... it was NOT minimalist!). I would also be keen to know the names of the "New Zealand farmers" in the video. If they are who I think they are, then they did NOT have an injury free history!
It is the shill fallacy. I love it when people use it to counter what I say, as it just proves me right.
All the usual.. self promoting, anecdotal stuff Craig.

Lydiard was a GREAT coach, and I nearly p*ssed myself laughing at "guru" Chris McDougal paraphrasing him in one of his recent very silly videos..
I agree, Lydiard has been so misrepresented by so many people with an agenda to fill.

And, I have, a brand new pair of Lydiard running shoes still in the box that were presented to me several years ago. We I get back to Oz I will photograph them and post the photos.
They are NOT zero drop, nor are they minimalist

You can watch the video at http://www.nzonscreen.com/title/on-the-run-1979

The runners of course were John Walker and Peter Snell (whom I have met many times and had many discussions with.. )

It is actually pretty amazing and inspirational.. just completely out of place given the context.
End of the day.. it is all about promoting a theory to meet an end, with not a shred of evidence in sight.
I will not even begin to talk about his "spring theory" of human movement..
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Old 31st October 2012, 04:50 PM
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Default Re: Mark Cucuzzella, Plantar Fasciitis and his Anti-orthosis, Minimalist Shoe Message

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And, I have, a brand new pair of Lydiard running shoes still in the box that were presented to me several years ago. We I get back to Oz I will photograph them and post the photos.
They are NOT zero drop, nor are they minimalist
Yes please!
Quote:
You can watch the video at http://www.nzonscreen.com/title/on-the-run-1979
The runners of course were John Walker and Peter Snell (whom I have met many times and had many discussions with.. )
I too knew them both many years ago (my first ever conference presentation in 1982 was sharing a session with Peter Snell!) ..and the were NOT "New Zealand farmers". He could not get that right and its almost offensive to call them that.
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Old 1st November 2012, 06:37 AM
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Kevin, Simon,

This is one of the most bizaar posts i've seen. Here are the presentations with over 100 refs. Simon refused to give any references in his talk and showed some stuff written by others from a website i have a column on.

https://www.yousendit.com/dl?phi_act...07350200000000

The first post is from the shoe talk, the second is another talk on our larger mission here of public health. I'm a Family Physician and it is about health...not running.

Maybe i was asleep but do not think anyone saw my bare chest. Lydiard's runners did all the preventive work. watch "On the Run" which is linked. i showed 3 min of this with the hill springing. talked about how to retrain the chassis and spring. not sure where i have ever said to chuck all orthosis. my goal is to progressively train the foot and reduce the support as yu are able. this is training 101 of any system.

so pull up the links and refs if you desire.

i also made available thse peer reviewed materials. another talk and a resource sheet loaded with books, materials, and refs.

http://www.fmdrl.org/index.cfm?event...owseD&1=1#4101

Cheers ,

Mark
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Old 1st November 2012, 07:19 AM
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Default Re: Plantar Fasciitis and the anti-orthosis, Minimalist Shoe Message

Quote:
Originally Posted by toomoon View Post
Kevin.. cheers from a hurricane ravaged NYC..
I did indeed debate Dr. Mark Cucazella in Washington D.C. over the weekend, although I am still scratching my head over exactly what it was.
It went something like this.. I gave a 1/2 hour presentation outlining the reasons athletes get injured,what they do about it once they are injured, where minimalism and barefoot fit in, discussed form and the current concepts of FF vs MF vs RF, and tried to piece it all together in relation to footwear for the runner. Every part of this presentation was referenced with the most up to date literature I could access, and none of my presentation was based on my own opinion or anecdote.
Mark then took the podium, and for the first 10 minutes showed a random video from the 1979 of a bunch of New Zealand farmers who became runners, with a few snaps of Arthur Lydiard. He then spent the next 15 minutes showing videos of himself running, some barechested which was exciting, with the obvious assumption that the audience would immedaitely make the connection between the way Mark runs, the New Zealand farmers ran, injury and "form". Unfortunately, no-one got it at all.
You must remember this was a formal presentation to a medical audience, all doctors, immediately after a couple of good quality evidence-based lectures on medical management of emergencies during a marathon and exercise induced leg pain.
To say I was a little non-plussed would be an extreme understatement...The final 10 or so minutes of his alloted time telling the audience of his own personal opinions in relation to the issues, and he illustrated this by pulling out of a bag 20 or so used pairs of shoes.. all minimalist.. that he lined up along a table. really quite bizarre!
The interseting thing is that Mark has formed a "syndicate' with a bunch of guys, Biase being one of them, who will only recommend minimalist of barefoot. One of the syncophants is Nick Campitelli, who has called Mark "one of the greatest contemporary running educator of our time!".. I did not observe this unfortunately..
These are some of the things the great educator has said:
"Maximum pronation actually occurs when your heel is off the ground, so the foot’s role in this is critical."
"Runners (with or without shoes) who have strong feet have the ability to control the motion just fine."
"For most modern-day runners, spending a lifetime in stiff, overly cushioned, and supportive shoes has diminished their natural pronation control."
"Why is natural pronation control better? The foot is the magic spring that adds elastic recoil to our stride. This is free energy. When the foot is constricted by a rigid shoe, it cannot work as a spring and you need to apply more muscle to the stride. More muscle use is equated to more fatigue; and consequently there’s potential for more injury."
"once you go minimal donate the traditional shoes. your body will reject them. like eating crap after you have discovered real food."
His associated website.. Natural Running Centre makes the following observations:
" if the runner has suffered from patellar tendinitis, shin splints, or IT band syndrome, the pain always diminishes or is eliminated when the runner switches to a minimal shoe and a midfoot strike."... sheeeeez..
'I know there are people, most with perfectly good intentions, who believe that there are different ways of running “correctly”, each way unique to the individual, and that running form cannot really be taught or changed. There is an idea that running form is natural to the individual, but not the species, and any attempt to change an individual’s form is equal to forcing an unnatural change that will be detrimental to health and performance. Unfortunately traditional running footwear always alters a runner’s form."
" At least we have science on our side."
"Overpronation (or lack of supination) as with most symptoms, is often treated improperly as the root cause of a problem, especially by those eager to sell runners orthotics or “anti-pronation” shoes."
"orthotics or motion-control footwear can now become the reason for a new injury as normal gait is disrupted and shock is artificially altered."
"How do you know if you really overpronate? There are a few things you can do as a self test. First, look at the shoes you’ve been walking or running in for some time. If the outside of the heels are excessively worn out, then that is a sure sign you overpronate.".... WTF!!!
anyway.. I could go on like this all day.. you all get the gist of it.

The bottom line is that like nearly everyone, Mark has something to sell.. minimalist footwear at his minimalist store. The thing that REALLY concerns me is that is see a trend developing that was openly espoused by Mark.. that ALL children of ALL ages should go barefoot or minimalist for ALL activities whenver they can.

I just have to wonder if there is panic setting in at the demise of minimalism, and this is one last desperate attempt to sell footwear.

You be the judge..
Wow!! Simon Quoted me! I am honored!
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Old 1st November 2012, 07:28 AM
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Default Re: Plantar Fasciitis and the anti-orthosis, Minimalist Shoe Message

Quote:
Originally Posted by nickcampi View Post
Wow!! Simon Quoted me! I am honored!
Nick:

It is no great honor to be pointed out that you made the following quote:

Quote:
One of the syncophants is Nick Campitelli, who has called Mark "one of the greatest contemporary running educator of our time!"....
I am interested, Nick, in all the published papers and research that Mark Cucuzzella has done on running biomechanics or running shoe biomechanics or running injuries that makes you believe that he is "one of the greatest contemporary running educators of our time"? Or do you believe that Mark is so great just because he thinks like you and Blaise DuBois and Steve Gangemi, DC?

Personally, I have yet to read anything from either you, Mark, Blaise or Steve that is well-researched, objective and not biased in favor of minimalist shoes, even though the available research evidence proves otherwise. Maybe you can show mejust one example of objective scientific writing that any of you have published regarding running biomechanics, running shoe biomechanics or running injuries?
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Old 1st November 2012, 07:40 AM
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Default Re: Plantar Fasciitis and the anti-orthosis, Minimalist Shoe Message

Hey guys,
I know your are all podiatrist, I knows you all love orthotics, I know you prescribe orthotics for all type of pathology and for the life, I know you protect your peer like Simon even with his big asics bias... BUT please be serious!

Simon it's absolutely not credible!! I debate one time wit him and all the science bring in the debate was bull***t. http://www.therunningclinic.ca/blog/...eech-analysed/
The interesting thing, that time, Simon demanded his talk be destroyed. Why? He probably just said like all the time tons of "in lab pseudoscience" and sale pitch stuff.

Craig I respect you a lot, even if I don't agree with many thing. We debate together 8 month ago. it was very constructive. You taped the debate. Why you never publish it? Can I have the tape?

if you want have fun listen that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aId0y...ture=youtu.be=
and please comment
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Old 1st November 2012, 07:40 AM
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Default Re: Plantar Fasciitis and the anti-orthosis, Minimalist Shoe Message

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Kirby View Post
Nick:

It is no great honor to be pointed out that you made the following quote:



I am interested, Nick, in all the published papers and research that Mark Cucuzzella has done on running biomechanics or running shoe biomechanics or running injuries that makes you believe that he is "one of the greatest contemporary running educators of our time"? Or do you believe that Mark is so great just because he thinks like you and Blaise DuBois and Steve Gangemi, DC?

Personally, I have yet to read anything from either you, Mark, Blaise or Steve that is well-researched, objective and not biased in favor of minimalist shoes, even though the available research evidence proves otherwise. Maybe you can show mejust one example of objective scientific writing that any of you have published regarding running biomechanics, running shoe biomechanics or running injuries?
I had provided scientific references consistently and was accused of "cherry picking"
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Old 1st November 2012, 07:47 AM
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Default Re: Plantar Fasciitis and the anti-orthosis, Minimalist Shoe Message

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Kirby View Post
Personally, I have yet to read anything from either you, Mark, Blaise or Steve that is well-researched, objective and not biased in favor of minimalist shoes, regarding running biomechanics, running shoe biomechanics or running injuries?
I'm a young researcher :) http://www.therunningclinic.ca/en/cl...ise-dubois.php
Please provide scientific article (peer review) that Simon publish (except the 4 last one one hormone and tendon... that he probably pay to be co-author)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Kirby View Post
even though the available research evidence proves otherwise
lol ... give me you evidence that BBS are better than minimalist shoes
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Old 1st November 2012, 07:53 AM
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Default Re: Plantar Fasciitis and the anti-orthosis, Minimalist Shoe Message

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Originally Posted by toomoon View Post
Every part of this presentation was referenced with the most up to date literature I could access, and none of my presentation was based on my own opinion or anecdote.
LoL I know you don't believe yourself when you are telling this. did you do like in Austin? Juste up to date literature? Hahahahahahahahh

Quote:
Originally Posted by toomoon View Post
The interseting thing is that Mark has formed a "syndicate' with a bunch of guys, Biase being one of them, who will only recommend minimalist of barefoot.
if you want to know when I'm prescribing BBS (10% of people maximum) educate yourself : http://www.therunningclinic.ca/media...anigramme-.pdf
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Old 1st November 2012, 10:19 AM
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Default Re: Plantar Fasciitis and the anti-orthosis, Minimalist Shoe Message

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaise Dubois View Post
LoL I know you don't believe yourself when you are telling this. did you do like in Austin? Juste up to date literature? Hahahahahahahahh


if you want to know when I'm prescribing BBS (10% of people maximum) educate yourself : http://www.therunningclinic.ca/media...anigramme-.pdf
Biase you give yourself way too much credibility.. but that is what an ego driven no-one does I guess. "A young researcher".. what a joke.. you are a man with a product to sell to gullible physios desperate for an angle. You have not published anything of worth.. the only thing we ever saw was so bad no-one even commented on it.
You have never presented as a keynote speaker at a mainstream sports medicine conference and never will. You have never even been sighted at such a conference. By you own admision you got your arse kicked by me in Austin, and by the way in the opinion of everyone who was there. Then you manipulated the debate to suit your own needs on your own website because your ego was not up to it, that was very brave of you Biase, using your own website.. any idiot can do that... that is LOL.. hahahahahahahahaha. And as always you are loose with the truth.. I never demanded that the speech be deleted. That is a figment of your fevered imagination.
You are a cliche Biase.. a joke.. with zero credibility except with those who fawn over you and agree with you, and that ain't me. Youn try to be friend swith people like Craig, when in reality he is critical of you and what you say, what you stand for. You tried to m ake friends with Kevin, but that did not work either because he can see that you are jsut a desperate man tying to get rich quick off other peole's ignorance. It is not good enough Biase.. you should hold yourself to much higher standards and not jusy make the grab for cash. What are you going to do when your current bull*hit is discredited, as it will be very soon!? Really Biase.. what will you do? As I have said before.. get off this arena.. you bring nothing to it except your opinion, ego, bad english and anecdote. This is an ACADEMIC forum Biase, and you are not academic.
I do not need to justify myself to this forum Biase.. people KNOW me, people have heard me present, people have read my book chapters and my published research. No one knows who you are Biase, because you are a no-one.
I do not give a rat's ar*e what you say or think about me Biase.. honestly do not care less.. be cause you are a nobody who's opinion make no sense and is of no value.
now get of this forum for good. No-one is interested in what you have to say or you. Your desperation is shining through and it is very unseemly.. just go away Biase.. for good.
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Old 1st November 2012, 11:15 AM
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Default Re: Plantar Fasciitis and the anti-orthosis, Minimalist Shoe Message

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaise Dubois View Post
I'm a young researcher :) http://www.therunningclinic.ca/en/cl...ise-dubois.php
Please provide scientific article (peer review) that Simon publish (except the 4 last one one hormone and tendon... that he probably pay to be co-author)


lol ... give me you evidence that BBS are better than minimalist shoes
Blaise:

It was so nice when you were absent from Podiatry Arena. Wishing you were gone again.

It is no use asking me to criticize Simon Bartold. I first met Simon when I lectured at my third international seminar in New Zealand fifteen years ago, in 1997. Since then we have lectured together internationally on at least three occasions, we have attended many a conference together, we have performed together in our band, the Tarsal Coalition, and we always have a great time when we can get together to talk, drink beer and discuss biomechanics and sports medicine.

More importantly, I consider Simon to be one of the top sports podiatry lecturers in the world at this time, if not the very best. He is continually asked to lecture here in the United States at large conferences and he is very familiiar with the latest research on foot and lower extremity biomechanics, sports injury research and shoe biomechanics research in addition to having been a practicing sports podiatrist for many years. Almost all the notable international lecturers know Simon and respect him for his opinions.

It is funny to hear you bash Simon, because when I asked one of the most famous sports biomechanics researchers from your own country, Benno Nigg, at the last international conference I lectured at in Spain last month, if he knew who Blaise Dubois was, Benno replied: "Who?" I guess you haven't impressed even your own country men very much. That is pretty pathetic.

I'm sorry that you got beat in your last debate with Simon but that is really no surprise to me. Blaise, you really didn't stand a chance against Simon since you are so one-sided and focused on promoting your own minimalist shoe agenda to physiotherapists, and anyone else who will pay you to hear you lecture, that you will always lose a debate with someone like Simon, who is very fair and balanced in his opinions and is an expert in both the clinical and research side of foot and lower extremity injuries and shoe biomechanics.

Why don't you and Mark Cuccuzzella and Nick Campitelli and Steve Gangemi all continue on your blogs quoting each other's one-sided opinions so you can remain blissful in your odd thought process that there is something wrong with runnning in shoes that have not yet earned the coveted "minimalist shoe" label, (whatever that is), that foot orthoses are evil and weaken feet, and that running with a heel-striking pattern is somehow bad for all runners.

Many of us are getting very tired of your illogical, one-sided arguments here on Podiatry Arena and as I said, wish you would just go away to that minimalist shoe pedestal that you have placed yourself upon and that you use to sell tickets to your weekend falllacy seminars on "minimalist shoe supremacy" to anyone that is gullible enough to pay you the money to listen to your nonsense.
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Old 1st November 2012, 11:32 AM
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Default Re: Plantar Fasciitis and the anti-orthosis, Minimalist Shoe Message

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaise Dubois View Post
I know your are all podiatrist
Exactly. Why are you still here then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaise Dubois View Post
if you want have fun listen that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aId0y...ture=youtu.be=
and please comment
My comment: Simon looks just as good beardless.

Cheers,
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Old 1st November 2012, 12:22 PM
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Default Re: Plantar Fasciitis and the anti-orthosis, Minimalist Shoe Message

Lets keep this on track:

1. Is there any evidence to support the claims reported in the first post that minimalism is better for plantar fasciitis? (there is plenty of evidence to support foot orthotics for plantar fasciitis).

2. Do you believe in evidence based practice? Why would I want to use a treatment that has no evidence vs a treatment that has evidence?

3. How to those who advocate minimalism for plantar fasciitis explain the RCT that used minimalism to treat plantar fasciitis that found no differences between the two groups, yet there were several drop outs in the minimalism group as they got too painful?

4. Why are so many barefoot and minimalist runners getting plantar fasciitis? (and most of the ones I have seen are not 'transition' related and are in those who could be considered well adapted)

My impressions (in the absence of data) is that there is just as much plantar fasciitis in barefoot/minimlist runners as their are in traditionally shod heel strikers.
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Old 1st November 2012, 12:36 PM
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Default Re: Plantar Fasciitis and the anti-orthosis, Minimalist Shoe Message

ADMIN NOTE:

Post #13 by Mark Cucuzzella has only now just been added to this thread.

All members with a history of less than a certain number of posts who have a link to an external site in their posts, have the posts sent to the moderation queue to check for spam before being approved for public view. Mark's post fell into the mod queue due to the links. Spam is a big problem on all forums. We only just got to the moderation queue now.
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Old 1st November 2012, 01:20 PM
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Default Re: Plantar Fasciitis and the anti-orthosis, Minimalist Shoe Message

Quote:
Originally Posted by markcucu View Post
The first post is from the shoe talk, the second is another talk on our larger mission here of public health. I'm a Family Physician and it is about health...not running.
Mark:

Podiatrists also are all about health. That is why we use plantar strapping, gastrocnemius-soleus stretching exercises, night splints, over-the-counter foot orthoses, custom foot orthoses, and other therapies to treat our patients with plantar fasciitis. These techniques are quite successful and have been used for years by many medical specialists, including family practice physicians.

Now, it is your turn. Please provide us with scientific research or other high-level references which supports one of the statements you made from your internet article on plantar fasciitis: "The only way that you can actually fix plantar fasciitis is to address the root cause… weak foot muscles."

Please show us the research evidence that supports that people with plantar fasciitis have weak foot muscles.

We will be anxiously waiting for your reply.
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Old 1st November 2012, 05:31 PM
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Default Re: Mark Cucuzzella, Plantar Fasciitis and his Anti-orthosis, Minimalist Shoe Message

Quote:
Originally Posted by toomoon View Post
I will not even begin to talk about his "spring theory" of human movement..
Epiphany moment, thank you Simon. A while back James Stoxsen DC posted a thread The Human Spring http://www.podiatry-arena.com/podiat...ad.php?t=65012

I've often wondered where this came from and finally today with Simon's post I found the link between James "Human Spring" and Mark's "Spring Theory".

Mark, since you and James appear to be linked together http://www.thebarefootrunners.org/th...t-runner.2548/I'd like to ask who's theory came first or are they they same? Chicken or egg?
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Old 1st November 2012, 06:23 PM
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David,

Yes James gets it and anyone doing modern coaching spends a lot of time tuning the spring mechanism with skips, box jumps, lateral jumps, jump rope, strides, etc.
This is no ones branded method. Read Jay Dicharry's book "Anatomy for Runners". it you understand the complexity of the running motion, a series of jumps, then the spring must work well to keep well. Muscle tendon units fel the discomfort with immediate training, joints do not. therefore one must sacrafice a little short term discomfort in retraining with the long term goal of protecting the joints.
heck even Asics is on it with the "Natural Running" video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YbAYDmsgso
watch the springy jumps and glute work. a nice training video.
I am NOT a researcher and never have claimed to be. I'm an educator as Nick C pointed out and have spent 10 years doing 100's of community level clinics as well as military bases and medical conferences. and i also show up to the race to test myself and see if new things work.

Mark
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  #28  
Old 1st November 2012, 08:29 PM
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Default Re: Plantar Fasciitis and the anti-orthosis, Minimalist Shoe Message

[quote=markcucu;282511]Kevin, Simon,

This is one of the most bizaar posts i've seen. with over 100 refs. ]

I am really sorry Mark.. but even after reviewing the link you provided, .. there are NO references, let alone the "100" you claim

[Simon refused to give any references in his talk and showed some stuff written by others from a website i have a column on.]

The refences I cited were as follows:
Ker et al., (1983)
Hasegawa et al., (2007)
Larsen et al., (2011)
van Gent et al., (2007)
Lieberman et al Nature 2010
Draoud et al 2012
Mc Carthy et al 2011
Hamill et al 2011
Hamill et al 2012
Gruber et al 2012
Shorten et al 2009




[The first post is from the shoe talk,

the second is another talk on our larger mission here of public health. I'm a Family Physician and it is about health...not running.]

why are you talking about a second talk I , nor anyone else had the opportunity to hear??

[Maybe i was asleep but do not think anyone saw my bare chest. Lydiard's runners did all the preventive work. watch "On the Run" which is linked. i showed 3 min of this with the hill springing. ]

no.. that is not true.. you showed 8 minutes, with another 2 minute commentary!!

talked about how to retrain the chassis and spring. not sure where i have ever said to chuck all orthosis. ]

you said in a podcats that it was your desire to " see the trails and tracks of America strewn with every orthosis ever prescribed. Furthermore, when I questioned you on this you said orthoses were only ever of value for advanced or severe orthopaedi issues and then questionable.

[my goal is to progressively train the foot and reduce the support as yu are able. this is training 101 of any system.]

Show me the data for this in the context of this discussion

[so pull up the links and refs if you desire.]

sorry.. there are no references

[i also made available thse peer reviewed materials. another talk and a resource sheet loaded with books, materials, and refs.]

made it available to whom, and when. Certainly not in my presence during our discussion..
  #29  
Old 1st November 2012, 08:41 PM
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Default Re: Plantar Fasciitis and the anti-orthosis, Minimalist Shoe Message

[quote=markcucu;282511]Kevin, Simon,

Quote:
Originally Posted by markcucu View Post
David,

heck even Asics is on it with the "Natural Running" video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YbAYDmsgso
watch the springy jumps and glute work. a nice training video.
Mark
Ypu know.. I do not much care to argue this, but Mark.. this is NOT an ASICS video.. it is an opinion of an individual at an ASICS sponsored event.

There is a big difference between that and what you are suggesting...
  #30  
Old 1st November 2012, 09:41 PM
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Default Re: Plantar Fasciitis and the anti-orthosis, Minimalist Shoe Message

Quote:
Originally Posted by markcucu View Post
David,

Yes James gets it and anyone doing modern coaching spends a lot of time tuning the spring mechanism with skips, box jumps, lateral jumps, jump rope, strides, etc.
This is no ones branded method. Read Jay Dicharry's book "Anatomy for Runners". it you understand the complexity of the running motion, a series of jumps, then the spring must work well to keep well. Muscle tendon units fel the discomfort with immediate training, joints do not. therefore one must sacrafice a little short term discomfort in retraining with the long term goal of protecting the joints.
heck even Asics is on it with the "Natural Running" video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YbAYDmsgso
watch the springy jumps and glute work. a nice training video.
I am NOT a researcher and never have claimed to be. I'm an educator as Nick C pointed out and have spent 10 years doing 100's of community level clinics as well as military bases and medical conferences. and i also show up to the race to test myself and see if new things work.

Mark
Mark I’m not sure I need to read Jay’s book to understand running mechanics but thank you. I actually prefer cycling but I do try to learn and keep up with all biomechanics.

http://naturalrunningcenter.com/colu.../jay-dicharry/

If you listen carefully from 40 sec to 1:43 you’ll notice that Jay Dicharry in this segment suggests that “locking” of the foot joints in late midstance (supination) is good because it changes the foot from a “mobile adapter to a rigid lever”.

(Where have we heard this lexicon before?)

http://www.podiatry-arena.com/podiat...ad.php?t=65012

On the other hand, James Stoxsen in the thread referenced above states
Quote:
“What I have found clinically is the movement of the metatarsal cunieform joint is the most commonly locked joint in the foot. So if you did a joint play evaluation of the joints of the human foot the joint I find that has the least joint play of all of them is that joint.
(Comment: Maybe because it is a saddle joint?

Quote:
The way the human body absorbs the forces of impact in the landing of the foot in my opinion is one of the most important areas to evaluate for patients overall general health. So with that how does the mobility of the metatarsal cunieform joints effect these impacts. What I have found is that the most common examination finding on patients with chronic conditions related to walking mechanics is the stiffness or locking of the joint play in the metatarsal cunieform joint.
Mark, how do you resolve that as James and Jay, who are both contributors to your website, give very conflicting explanations of proper foot joint function? Jay is saying that this is good and James is saying that this is bad.

Add to that this thread where Simon discusses the idea of “joint locking”:

http://www.podiatry-arena.com/podiat...2&postcount=43

Quote:
Which seems to question the idea that rearfoot inversion decreases the range of and "locks" the midtarsal joint- indeed, it appears to support Sarrafian's position that the foot is close-packed with rearfoot pronation….
I had a conversation with James via phone sometime last year. He is passionate about what he does no doubt but I don’t feel he quite grasps biomechanics at a high level based on our conversation. Given that he markets this theory as “anti-aging” is interesting, we’re still waiting for an explanation of how the two fit together. I personally think that instead of real research and study there appears to be a liberal usage of canned proclamations and theories and they’re not “congruent” Mark. That’s just the way that I see it based on reading and viewing their presentations.

Any thoughts on these apparent contradictions Mark?
What is your position on “locking of the midtarsal joints”?
How is the 2nd metatarsal cuneiform like a spring please, in your own words?
What structures do you feel modulate forces in running, walking and jumping?
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