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[color=Lime]November 2004 somewhere in
the darkest corner of the West Midlands a decision was made to approach the
Cheif Executive and Registrar of the Health Professions Council Mr Marc Seale
for advice and guidance on FHP`s regulation by the HPC, Present at this Birth
V.j.Fletcher, J.Falkner-Heylings,J.Taylor and J.O`gorman.
A reply was quickly recieved and a meeting was arranged on the 31st January 2005 at Park House with Marc Seale, Norma Brook and Karen Scott ( aspirant groups ) to discuss the application for the aspirant group "Foot Health Practitioners". The Difference between a Podiatrist and a FHP is in scope and depth of practice, in that a podiatrist is a specialist and a FHP is a routinist.
9th March 2005 the Alliance was appointed a mentor Dr Alexander Yule OBE, by the HPC to steer and advise upon the process of the application.
Now you can all relax in the knowledge of what a FHP is and the BIG BAD WOLF is not coming to gobble you up, all this information was obtained from that most secret publication the ALLIANCE JOURNAL issue 11 summer 2005
a complimentory copy is available to all just contact Mrs Janet Taylor Monday to Friday 9am to 5pm 01492 535 795

Hi Little Tony,

Why didn't you stick this in earlier and save me all that trouble on the other Thread! It's 2.30 in the morning here! You could have saved me all that thinking you know, it hurts?

For your reference the Big bad Wolf is not from the ranks of the FHP's. but from our lot!

Sounds good but hang about a moment whilst I go and get that tin hat again, it's been one of those weeks you know!!! A specialist and a routinist I do believe some of our specialists did not know about you Routinists! You cannot help but smile but I mustn't!

I send you greeting's from another Big bad Wolf! I wish your process towards the Register well and do hope that it wont be to long in hitting the head lines.

You may just get a little present on this Forum in a couple of weeks time, I have tried?

I shall now go to ground!!!

Regards,

Colin. (Do you know there is one in there who I think was just winding me up you know? Now I'm going to have to find something else to whinnge about!).

PS. I did know about your meeting with the HPC. but I have to admit I thought it had ground to a sudden halt re. the long silence!!!

PPS. Pass my congratulation on to Janet I had a long conversation with her last year but I doubt that she would remember me! Just gave that little push I needed at the time! Hows the CPD's going? Still coming out of your ears across there!

PPPS. Now the Forums are going to be flooded with Specialists, Routinists, (If I can remember how to spell it), and the odd argumentative Chiropodist! Now shall I rephrase that, why no!

Hi All

I find the post interesting but have a question

Who is setting the remit for the levels of "scope and depth of practice for FHP's ??

Where does specialist start and routinist stop ??

Are there to be levels set at all ??

If so how will they be monitored ??

Cheers

Derek

Dear All,

Scope of practice and depth of knowledge as a discriminator for role and definition of role and title.

This is well founded in the world of Medical Practice.

Consultants
Specialists
Surgeons
Doctors
RGN and grades within
AHP's and disciplines and grades within
Dentists disciplines and grades within


All of the above are clearly identifiable by the TRAINING and EXAMINATION process. This is usually based on a minimum of a tertiary level of education.
This level of EDUCATION is universally applied as the MINIMUM REQUIREMENT .

So where does that leave those practitioners who do not meet the above.

AS ANCILIARY GRADE/HELPER GRADE who work under the direct supervision of a TRAINED PRACTITIONER.

This means that FHP cannot be an autonomous practitioner but must work under the direct supervision of a TRAINED PRACTITIONER.

Will the HPC go for this when they are going to consider regulation of anciliary grades as if they are TRAINED.

Why cannot the commercial trainers just call it quits and put up or shut up.

JOIN the HPC reg sector and move the professions forward as CHIROPODISTS PODIATRISTS.

Or stop fudging and admit defeat and train Beauty Therapists who provide non medical pedicures.

regards David

Dear Davohorn of never never land
Training and examination is what the Foot Health Practitioners course is, the training and examination will have to meet HPC requirements. Training is under HPC registered Chiropodist/Podiatrist, the training is aimed at routine Chiropody and the referral of specialist work.
It would help if you read an open and honest Journal that did not keep it`s members in the dark reading a pseudo intellectual comic. The alliance Journal has continually kept it`s members up to date with the "TRUTH" about its actions and the state of play with the HPC start up, plus continually dispelling the falsehoods perpetuated from other organisations, can any other body stand up to the same openess and honesty I very much doubt it

Little Tony
As instigator of this thread can I suggest that before it gets too out of control that you contact the HPC for a clarification of the position of aspirant professions.

It was my understanding from a HPC 'listening' event that all aspirant professions under the rules of the HPC would be going through the process you describe. However that was far from saying the application would be successful. In fact it was indicated that the FHP's case was very doubtful because of trying to prove a difference between them and a protected profession of Podiatry.
IMHO routenist vs specialist, does not hold water for me. (just done the spell check and routenist is yet another addition to the English language thanks to the Alliance. The Penguin English Dictionary gives routine 'boringly automatic procedure'. Sorry could not resist.)

Still just a thought.

Bob

Hi Bob and all

That is where I am having the problem with all of this.

If there is a differential in levels of scope of practice they surely must be laid down by the HPC = regulation.??

If as David suggested they are to be an assistant grade then that would be a relatively simple thing to regulate.

If as it would appear at present they are to be "an autonomous" practitioner I can't for the life of me see how that will ever be controllable within the stated function of the HPC "to protect the public".

If this is the case then I ask again ,what was the point of regulation in the first place ??

Cheers

Derek

Hi Colin and Tony,
Little Tony has had a fair amount of fun keeping this from us, let him have his day, it wont last long.

I feel the deep rumblings running through the forum, I am going to have the tin hat on as well. Why, well here I go, running already.

FHP'S, can practise on their own in their own Surgery or home Visits.
they wont be practising Chiropody, (it doesn't exsist)
however they cant call themselves Podiatrists either.

They will be qualified, with a Diploma, not a Degree, but hey, who dares wins.
With the confusion over Chiropody/Podiatry, will the public know (tongue in cheek).
True? but not my real view.

FHP range and scope of practice the difference, L.A. wil be unavailable any proceedures requiring L.A. will be referred on to the specialist,(be friendly to your local FHP with his range of practice the potential of accepting their ingrowing toe nails op`s is financially beneficial £ 180.00 in my locality).
FHP will not be prescribing POM, another chance of referral, plus many of
them will not be praciticing Biomechanics, another nice little earner £250.00 on average around here.
So for the future I shall embrace all my local FHP`s and shower them with love and affection, until my early retirement. 3 FHP`s referring 2 ingrowing OP`s a week plus 2 Biomechanical assessment`s you do the MATH`s, I know I will be far better off with FHP`S than without.

p.s I think I will start an FHP appreciation society " LOVE YOUR FHP "

" First they ignore you-then they laugh at you-then they fight you-then you win " GHANDI 1869-1950

Hi Bob followed by Tony,

Bob, true to form and with a certain sympathy in what you are trying to argue! But here in this newly-laid-minefield a case put forward can only succeed if it is accurate?

For instance, ROUTINIST!

Routine:- Regular course of procedure, unvarying performance of certain acts;
Computers:- Routine:- Sequence of instructions for performing a task;

(2)__ist Hence Routinist!
(3)__ism Hence Routinism!
[The Concise Oxford Dictionary. Seventh Edition 1982].

By the way Bob, isn't that what Podiatrists are trying to get out of doing? Especially in the NHS.? The routine of general nail cutting!

Tony, On the other hand are you implying along with Dipper above that chiropody doesn't exist? I say CHIROPODY most definitely still exists and cannot be argued away!

We still have the dangerous situation that if it be shown that Specialists or Routinist are not consistent in their practice? The Barrister appearing for the Plaintiff will have a wonderful time with you in the County Court!

I am a Routinist who specializes in certain parts of my field of chiropody, hence I am a Chiropodist! Now I think that is where the FHP. might have a few casualties if we consider that we are still living and working in the minefield. But there appears to be some hope for us at any rate after the turn of the year! Actions and functions defined and specified by new legislation by CHRE. through HPC. possibly???

Regards,

Colin.

PS. Little Tony, Admin has a long reach if he thinks Rules are not being kept to re. good manners, insults etc. conducted here on the Forum!

PPS. Ghandi 1869 -1950. Poor man he couldn't add the last, could he:- "Then they killed him!" And it wasn't the Empire either, they too were innocent! (A joke! just a sick joke Admin. I think?).

PPPS. Have we someone from the Hierarchy speaking to us here Tony?

Apologies Colin
It is a word, however the rest stands.
Bob

Dear All,

Minimum Standards of training in order to achieve HPC registration.

This is stipulated as a Degree from a recognised and approved educational institution at this time and specific Universities.

Any body can set up a training establishment and sell courses direct to the public for financial profit.

And without any external regulation or validation of that training regarding the quality and relevance of that training.

Therefore at this time that training has no educational value.

This is because those trainers are the designers of the training. The trainers of that training. The examiners of that training and the awarders of the qualification.

So it is entirely in house.

So how can the training have any measureable value relative to that of HPC approved training.

It is my contention that it therefore has little or no value.

I could set up a school of motoring and award a diploma in Advanced Driving Skills. Charge handsomely for it.

But it would have no status in law so does not make one LEGALLY able to drive.

But i would say that they only apply to those that do routine driving and not specialist driving. So my advanced driving diploma relates to routine driving skills.

Trouble is you dont know that you need the depth and breadth of training that a tertairy level of education provides until you are faced with a problem that needs that level of knowledge and skill.

So let us unite behind the HPC and go forth and embrace the HPC and its attempts to provide credibility to the training and skills of HPC reg practitioners.

Bypassing the process only brings ridicule to those who have chosen to EVADE the HPC process.

The HPC has two words for those practitioners.

IT IS ROGUE PRACTITIONERS

see the HPC web site and its recent advertising.



regards David

The HPC advertising referred to those practitioners who were not HPC reg but who were practicing as that TITLE and or using that protected title.

Regards David

Hi All,

David, As usual you are spot on regarding the academic level of new Chiropodist/Podiatrist!

However, with regard to FHP's. it could be said to be like comparing apples with pears I'm afraid?
Are you asking the question and saying that
Chiropodist = FHP.
If so FHP. registration should fail on One being the Other!

If Chiropodist doesn't = FHP. FHP., being defined by HPC., and is highly likely to be seen to be a Technical healthcare grade, (A Technician!), a diploma/NVQ. at a certain grade will do I suspect!

Healthcarers in a residential home by the end of next year could also be classified as a technical healthcare grade and will be graded with the appropriate NVQ. grade I'm sure. They will not be at degree level! Yet they will be on an HPC. Register I strongly suspect!

An aside:- How would that effect the final outcome of, 'FHP. stand alone.' In residential homes we have a manager or nursing sister? Carers duties are in their contracts. If 'a stand alone' FHP. would not have to be supervised! But would have to be duty bound to carry out a set routine procedure with more adequate inspection than we get at present as 'Stand alones!' CPD's perhaps twice a year, (Detailed record keeping?). A Routinist no doubt may not need quite so much supervision!

'The West-Midland School of FHP.' is validated by an outside body whose name I cannot remember I'm afraid, somebody?

Regards,

Colin.

Hi Colin,
I was reffering to the term Chiropodist, which we keep being told is now Podiatry, and just to make the picture clear, I will be training as a Podiatrist not an FHP.

Not your comment next, but, "Foot Health practioners course qualifies the practioner to set up in private Practise", or Domicillary practise visiting clients in their own homes" ect, .After passing qualification, your continuing occupational developement is assured byu joinong The Alliance of Private Sector Practioners.
Who will these FHP's be regulated by.

Hi,
Tony, misguided I may be, but I can read a prospectus and rulings, I do not have anything against FHp's, in some cases I can see why this has happened and is happening, however, regulation is needed,as there will be practioners, who have very limited understanding despite being trained, and doubtless limited techniques. To me a fast track course, does not give anybody, unless they have a really good grounding of medical knowledge, the ability to grasp all the implications and medical diffulcultys there can be with Footcare and associated diseases and illnesses..

Sorry I hope you will not be offended, I am stating the problem as I see it in general, not to you personally.

Hi Dipper,

Quote:-" I was referring to the term Chiropodist, which we keep being told is now Podiatry......... "

Yes, can be difficult to grasp at times when listening to people?

I prefer to think of it as stratification in a field,

1. Chiropody is this bedrock and main layer of soil of the Subject!

2. Podiatry is the developed subject content growing on the field of Chiropody!
Chiropody has not been totally immersed or covered by the Podiatry strata as yet?

3. Now where do you think the FHP. fit into this?

Regards,

Colin.

Colin
You some times win a point.
However most of the time you make no sense.

It's a shame because some of us think you do have some think to contribute.

What on earth are you trying to say about FHPs. I can not work it out!

I will now post a reply I was not going to use but may still be relevant.

[color=Blue]Derek

I have kept out of this debate as I did not want to cause offence, but David has opened the 'box', so this is my opinion.

FHP describes three distinct groups in a common situation, they are trying to circumvent the will of the government.

The first group consists of those chiropodists who were able to register but who for what ever reason chose not to. They are openly criticised by their registered peers.

The second group is those chiropodists who had been practising but failed to meet the HPC criteria for inclusion. This group were practising at such a low level they should not be a loss to the Profession.

The third group are those who continued to train despite their knowledge of never being able to become registered. They are either naive and have been over-influenced by the training bodies, or simply do not care about the Profession.

So what do we have, a group of people who persist in confusing the Profession of Chiropody.

I for one have no sympathy for them.

'Where do the FHPs stand in the Profession'. Nowhere, they are outside the Profession.

'Are they to carry on as chiropodists under another name, or are they to have their scope of practise limited by the HPC?'

In my opinion the HPC are not in a position to 'define' scope of practise. The role of the HPC is to stop their practise 'in the interest of protection of the public'.

As HPC registered pods I think it should be incumbent on us all to stop our representative bodies supporting these groups. This would make the HPC's task simpler.

Will it happen, as Colin says look for those pigs.

I apologise for any personal offence this may cause individuals, it is not intended to, but it is my view of the mess we have been left in.

Bob.


Further to the personal position, as individuals there is no animosity however every individual has decided to join a force therefore are individually responsible. So yes it is personal sorry.>

Hi Bob,

Well despite not understanding what I was trying to say to Dipper you get possibly nine out of ten for your version of the answer!!!

Regards,

Colin.

PS. If we lived in a perfect world we would have a perfect environment! But we don't, the war always starts here where we are at? Not where we would like to be!

PPS. Again I refer to the new if that is an accurate description of the role and existence of the CHRE. who will quiet probably do exactly that, (Define and regulate! Regulate who can do what where and for why? HPC. a part of this High Council in the Medical Field will be the instrument that will tidy up and do what others have not got the power to do. I say again the FHP. solution, (What ever it is?), lies with the HPC. with a little help from it's friends!!!

Hi Bob

( new you couldn't resist gettin involved )

But are they Bob ?? They are coming out of their respective training establishments and are in practice now !! Where is the legislation to control that ??

We now have a hiatus in the profession and despite any future legislation those already "out there" will stay there!!

We now have Them & Us & Them

Restrict their scope of practice ??

How do you do that when they work behind closed doors ??

Anyone who thinks they can is DREAMING !!!

With all due respect I didn't ask to have hundreds of pounds taken from me to register to "protect the public" !!!

I'm not here to do their job for them either!!

If they want to do the job THEN DO IT !!

Dont expect me to help, I pay them to protect me as well !!

They must perform to "protect the public" same as I you and every other pod has to!! and from what I can make of it the only ones that are failing in their duty is THEM !!!( sorry you hit a raw nerve there) rant over

These people entered into a situation and were led there for their own reasons and encouraged to do so by the teaching establishments.

To make it a "personal issue" must be wrong Bob??

They are there because of an awful lot of expense, hard work and "misinformation??"

Time will tell as to the outcome especially with the newly emerging CHRE .

In the meantime the hiatus expands to divide the profession even further.

Shame innit :(

Cheers

Derek

Shame innit :(

Derek
Yes it is a great shame and I agree with your analysis of why 'they' are there.

Bob

Hi Derek

Despite what I have said privately, ref. your above Post I agree with you too. There's something wrong here somewhere, agreement? We could continue to nit pick until FHP's are registered somewhere, but it's nice to hear a bit of down to earth common sense sometimes, trouble is it can be boring!

Cheers,

Colin.

Dear All,

FHP to my knowledge did not exist until the HPC stated that it was going to protect the titles of :
Chiropody
Podiatry

So when those titles were due to be protected the training establishments made a choice.

I believe the wrong choice but hey they have to stay in business serving themselves and their vested interests.

So

FHP appeared out of no where as if by magic.

So we are asked to accept the FHP as a BONA FIDE profession.

PLUMS

getting back to the protecetd titles.

CHIROPODY

means essentially HAND and FOOT

PODIATRY

means essentially Study OF The Foot.

Podiatry has been used by the Americans for 40 years.

Most of the world uses the term Podiatry or its linguistic equivalent in other languages.

ONLY The backwater we call Britain continued to use the term Chiropody until about 10 years ago.

regards David

Hi David,

Quote:-"FHP to my knowledge did not exist until the HPC stated that it was going to protect the titles of :
Chiropody
Podiatry."

That's just the trouble David protecting the titles does not protect the two Subjects.

FHP didn't exist until HPC? But David they were there for I saw them even when they didn't exist I swear I saw them!

The question possibly to ask is, "Why did they not curl up and die as promised!"

Regards,

Colin. (Time to go and dig a big hole again I think with Tin hat at the ready perhaps?).

Dear Colin,

a very good question.

"WHY DID THEY NOT CURL UP AND DIE AS PROMISED"

money

It is that simple.

The trainers are in business to sell training.

So just keep changing the name of the course and advertise and hey presto you still have a business.

Why do you think that the commercial trainers did not embrace HPC reg?

regards David

Dear DAVOhorn
West Midlands School, All directors have HPC registration
Alliance Journal January 2004 Presidents comment " if registration is for you go for it"
Unlike other orginisations it was explained in the spring Journal 2003 ( what was Known at the time ) The pro`s and con`s of registration and left to the individual to decide what action to take.
With the Leadership all going for registration and being successful this look`s` like the private trainers Embracing the HPC.
YOURS SINCERELY
LITTLE TONY

Dear Little Tony,

This would have more credence if they were involved in the education of CHIROPODISTS and PODIATRISTS.

Which they are not.

They chose to be grandparented as was their right under the terms of grandparenting.

Trouble is that their establishment has chosen not to be involved in the education of Chiropodists and Podiatrists.

They are training people in FHP which is neither Chiropody nor Podiatry.

An interesting scenario dont you think!

regards David

Dear DAVOhorny
So when I have been paying for my Open Clinical Forum`s to gain my CPD, I have
not been educated when these people have been lecturing. You will of course be paying my legal fee`s while I sue.
We all know FHP, is Chiropody / Podiatry under another name or why else are we arguing.
Please let`s deal with the Fact`s and Truth and not try and be psuedo-intellectual
yours sincerely
Little Tony

Dear Tony or whoever you are

Please at least have the B**lls to identify yourself !!

If you want to play silly wind up unprofessional insulting and derogatory games Bugger off to thatfootsite and do it there !!

This site is above that and David don't bother rising to the bait because Craig will now shut this thread down because I have sworn on it

Thank you and if you don't Craig there will be a lot more on here!!
Tony
if you have an opinion fine but back it up with a proper name and checkable personal details !!

Derek

You are right - the thread has stopped being productive and of any use. Its locked.

I should start a new thread "Why is it that UK threads get out of hand"

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