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Non-BSc trained uk pods

Discussion in 'United Kingdom' started by tonywatson12, Feb 19, 2014.

  1. tonywatson12

    tonywatson12 Active Member


    Members do not see these Ads. Sign Up.
    Hi just wondered who trains the "other" chiropodists / podiatrists?

    Was looking at the S.M.A.E web site and noticed the clinical staff were BSc pods?

    What do you think about training for non HPC and none BSc pods?
    thanks
    Tony
     
  2. Rob Kidd

    Rob Kidd Well-Known Member

    Re: non BSc trained uk pods

    I have not looked in recent times, but I think that you will find that about half the UK qualified registrants are not BSc qualified, but with its forerunner - a diploma from one of The UK's Tech College training schools. Thus your classification on non BSc trained pods is meaningless and void of any academic merit. As a matter of fact, it includes me. Rob
     
  3. Ian Linane

    Ian Linane Well-Known Member

    Re: non BSc trained uk pods

    Hi Tony

    In regards to private training there is no one training other chiropodists / podiatrists as this door closed with the initiation of the HCPC body. Foot Health Professionals tends to be the term used to describe those undergoing private training these days.

    I originally trained with SMAE as a Pod, far too many years ago. It was a diploma in those days which allowed you to undertake general foot care. You were able to extend that by doing further modules such as, cryosurgery, electrotherapy, sports injuries, biomechanics. This of course was optional but I did them all. Of course this was all private funded and only going to return financial outlay if you put the effort in to evolve a business from it.

    Interestingly I first became involved in manual therapy with the SMAE who also ran a physiotherapy training course. As a pod I was able to do CPD there and that included some manual therapy CPD. Insurance wise (as a pod) we were covered up to the Pelvis area. I would suggest that the current training they provide may exceed that which I received all those years ago.

    Many years subsequent I did a BSc top up degree at Brighton Uni (Leaf Hospital). It was a great, though demanding, experience.
     
  4. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    Re: non BSc trained uk pods

    This one raises its head every so often. Its an open market-place and the private trainers will be around until it is a closed market-place.

    SMAE train their FHPs up to an acceptable level for basic foot care.
    So do the West Mids School I believe.
    Other trainers of non-podiatry footcare personnel are Stonebridge, Age Concern, and the NHS.

    Like Rob, I was also Diploma-trained, there being no degree courses for chiropodists in the 70's.
     
  5. tonywatson12

    tonywatson12 Active Member

    Re: non BSc trained uk pods

    sorry rob
    can you explain further? as many years back most pods did the conversion to BSc.
    I am awere that the diploma D pod M is the same (sort of)
    Most NHS jobs now ask for the BSc?
    tony
     
  6. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    Re: non BSc trained uk pods

    I'll jump in Tony (since I'm on here wasting time:D).

    The old three-year full-time chiropody course was just that. Practical (loads of it), underpinned by good theory - at Glasgow we shared some of our lecturers with medical school, as happens now of course.
    Examined at the end of each year and with a set of professional practical and theory exams, including oral, at the end of third year. After qualifcation came State Registration and the ability to walk into any NHS job you chose.

    The chance to do a conversion came in the 80's. Two years part-time for an Honours degree, with a proper research project - choose your subject (and not off a pre-prepared list) , go and get Ethics Committee approval (face-to-face in my case, since my research was injection-based), do the work, do the stats, and write it all up. Then present it to the examiners and some of the students.
    All good stuff, and very thorough:drinks.

    The BSc was one year part-time for the three years full time trained guys. I have no knowledge of how that was run.
     
  7. Rob Kidd

    Rob Kidd Well-Known Member

    Re: non BSc trained uk pods

    Are you aware of our history? The first week I did at foot school was spent on that. That was 1972, I was 17. In those days (leave US out, not helpful) there were no degrees in podiatry. I graduated in 1975 with a diploma in Pod, which was entirely typical - that was the norm.

    Do not mix conversion course of any sort, with the primary qual. I suspect that you are referring to conversion courses. If you start to think conversion courses, then one has to ask: where did you come from. I do not ask, and never will ask that question; it is not relevant in my world. I have several quals in addition to my Diploma in chiropody (1975), but it has no relevance to that original qual. Rob
     
  8. tonywatson12

    tonywatson12 Active Member

    Re: non BSc trained uk pods

    sorry rob I don't know how it works in aus.
    I do know back in the 1970 all podiatry/chiropody was diploma and that it changed about 20 years ago when I done mine to BSc.
    The conversion was rolled out so the dip pods could get the BSc I think it was a paper and the odd lecture at the now universities.
    mine changed from a poly to university when i was there

    thanks tony
     
  9. Rob Kidd

    Rob Kidd Well-Known Member

    Re: non BSc trained uk pods

    Tony, I was from Manchester. When I was at school, Manchester was a part of the UK. I went to the Northern College, at that time the biggest school of podiatry in the world with 28 full time staff. As it happened, I started my teaching career there, five years later, and stayed for a little over seven years. You mentioned BSc's but did not relate to where or what they were. I suggest to do some clearer homework on qualifications. start with the early days and diplomas, look at conversion courses. And perhaps more pertinently, look at other ways that pods took further qualifications, and what they might have been.

    Frankly, from where I am sitting, you revel in ignorance. Rob
     
  10. Cameron

    Cameron Well-Known Member

    Re: non BSc trained uk pods

    netizens

    In another life I was a instructional designer who put together academic courses for clinically based programs like podiatry. Like Rob and Dave we started out in the 70s with an attestation of fitness having completed a chiropody program of training at Glasgow (and Manchester respectively ) . This became a diploma historically and was a professional qualification recognised by the National Registration Board (pre HPC) organisation. Things were a bit simpler then. Prior to full time degree and honours degree programs some universities ran conversion programs starting in London and spreading out. These were academic programs grounded generally in and around health care but not specifically podiatry. In general they introduction practitioners to the scientific method. Once professional undergraduate degrees came on stream then a more integrated model developed. Meantime many pods of my generation and younger had done other first and higher degrees through OU etc.


    toeslayer
     
  11. tonywatson12

    tonywatson12 Active Member

    Re: non BSc trained uk pods

    oh dear having a bad day then?
    as you know all uk universities offer BSc in pod med now and not diplomas.


    look my comment is around the training of the none (and I will go back in time for you) CPSM state reg pods, from the schools like SMAE , Stonebrige and and other foot health training places that may be.

    And the comment that (back in time again) state reg pods are training them.

    It has nothing to do with the training of (back in time again) state reg pods.

    I think that is clear?
    I am sure you will let me know if it is not since I revel in ignorance!

    tony
     
  12. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    Re: non BSc trained uk pods

    The Schools are legit, the trainers are legit. Arguably, having trained to degree-standard themselves, the tutors will produce a better FHP.

    I can't see the problem.
     
  13. Podess

    Podess Active Member

    Re: non BSc trained uk pods

    DavidH,
    You said

    That would depend of the calibre of students in the first place.

    I do not know of any FHP training school that has any entrance reqirements other than being able to read and write English, and even then no standard is specified.

    You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. :pigs:
     
  14. tonywatson12

    tonywatson12 Active Member

    Re: non BSc trained uk pods

    Hi david thanks for the info

    Na I have no problem just in a post in a post on home visit fees people seem convinced that these foot healt pods are taking the work for cheaper rates.

    must admit been in that protective NHS bubble for many years and only now starting to do private work again.
    seems a bloody nightmare with all the foot health people now out there.

    Like Ian I started as a SMAE pod many years ago but went to uni soon after as all I was told in them days were you have to be state reg.
    remember the battles between the two?

    still feels odd having done all that training to be HPC reg and could have been if I had just stayed as a SMAE pod.
    Ian I have nothing but respect for you guys so please don't think I am having a go
    Tony
     
  15. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    Re: non BSc trained uk pods

    Well yes, but they are training FHPs, not graduate Pods.

    It you intend to roll this out to complain about FHPs, don't do it on here - write directly to the HCPC and send a cc to Mark Russell who will find a use for your evidence in his ongoing fight.
     
  16. blinda

    blinda MVP

    Re: non BSc trained uk pods

    Tony,

    Your original question is nonsensical; Since the augmentation of the HPO, there are no training schools for "none (sic) CPSM state reg pods". SMAE, Stonebridge etc, only train unreguated FHP`s, the equivalent to FCA`s, IMO.

    EDIT: Cross posted with Davidh....not that I`m REALLY cross, or having a bad day ;)
     
  17. Podess

    Podess Active Member

    Re: non BSc trained uk pods

    David H,
    You said

    and I'm not disputing that.

    :confused:

    What "evidence"?

    As you said yourself the schools that train FHPs are legit.
     
  18. blinda

    blinda MVP

    Re: non BSc trained uk pods

    Didn`t take long for the claws to appear.

    Question for you, Podess; Why bother to go the effort to take on new pseudonyms, when your writing style and attitude are clearly recognisable from your previous aliases?
     
  19. tonywatson12

    tonywatson12 Active Member

    Re: non BSc trained uk pods

    ah lunch time in the NHS what would we do without pod arena to gripe on?


    I love your comments blinda always make me smile.

    enjoy your lunch
    I am a bit thick whats HPO? (ok a lot thick)
     
  20. blinda

    blinda MVP

    Re: non BSc trained uk pods

    Nah, you`re alright, Tony. You`re just new to this Arena and maybe need to read a few previous threads that people like Rob Kidd have contributed to, so you can familiarise yourself with their work and know where they are coming from.

    HPO = Health Professions Order

    Cheers,:drinks
    Bel
     
  21. tonywatson12

    tonywatson12 Active Member

    Re: non BSc trained uk pods

    thanks
    would if had time.
    what do you think of the foot health people ?
    you are in full time private? I think you said
     
  22. blinda

    blinda MVP

    Re: non BSc trained uk pods

    Believe me, it would be worth your while. When one of your questions pops into your head, do a search to see if it has already been answered on a thread here and then you can contribute to the discussion with a little more insight.

    What do I think of foot health people? I think anyone who has an interest in foot health should be encouraged to undertake the BSc Podiatry degree, if their circumstances allow. However, if for whatever reason they can`t, then they should be encouraged to refer on when appropriate, not disparaged for recognising their limited scope of practice.

    I am a previously grandparented practitioner (originally gained my Chiropody diploma through the Institute of Chiropodists and Podiatrists), then progressed to do the full-time BSc (Hons) Podiatry degree at Southampton uni. Post grad I worked in the NHS and now run a busy full-time private practice.

    Good luck in setting up your practice.

    Bel
     
  23. tonywatson12

    tonywatson12 Active Member

    Re: non BSc trained uk pods

    hi bel, Insight not required for most grumpy gripe same moan pods!!!!
    :dizzy:
    was doing your BSc worth it?

    I mean you have ended up doing full time private work which you could have done without the BSc.

    My views are that what ever is the minimum standard to work in the nhs as a podiatrist, is the minimum standard to be a podiatrist.

    After All not all HPC podiatrists can work in the nhs and if the HPC or HPO control standards why can none degree or related diploma pods work in the nhs.

    or should all HPC reg pods be able to work for the nhs?

    more beer needed
     
  24. blinda

    blinda MVP

    Re: non BSc trained uk pods

    Sorry Tony, you've lost me. I don't understand your question.

    However, I can confirm that it was well worth doing the degree. It not only benefited my practice, as it served to increase the depth and breadth of my learning, but also provided a route for me to undertake further research in my field of interest. I strive to do/be my best, regardless of the required minimum standard. I personally think that is the key to a successful practice.
     
  25. tonywatson12

    tonywatson12 Active Member

    Re: non BSc trained uk pods

    hi bel
    the question was that you trained privately before doing your BSc.
    and was it worth it due to the fact you ended up doing private practice anyway.

    Just wondered if the 3 years at uni had made you private work any different as looking at mark russells comments and the hair cutting comparison seems we should not have bothered.

    In reality do we do the BSc so we can work in the NHS?
     
  26. blinda

    blinda MVP

    Re: non BSc trained uk pods

    I assume I have already answered your question, Tony.

    Of course the BSc has made a huge difference to my practice. I don`t regret undertaking the IOCP`s course either, as it provided a solid platform to build my ever increasing thirst for knowledge on.

    Tip; if you manifest a `can`t be/shouldn`t have bothered` attitude and not want to do more than the minimum, your patients will not bother to return either.

    BTW, I actually started working for the NHS before I graduated, as I was HPC registered. So, no. It is not a requirement for NHS staff to have completed a BSc.
     
  27. foot rott

    foot rott Banned

    Re: non BSc trained uk pods

    Hi Belinda
    I have just found the site.

    Are you saying that you can work in the NHS without training at one of the Universities?
    I have been in the NHS for a lot of years but have never seen any podiatrists who had not been to one of the universities.

    Was always under the impression it was a requirement for NHS work.

    Is this site only for private practice practitioners?
    thanks
     
  28. blinda

    blinda MVP

    Re: non BSc trained uk pods

    Yes, Tony. I am saying that you don't have to have a BSc degree to work as a podiatrist for the NHS. Not all existing NHS podiatrists have undertaken a BSc degree...

    Do yourself a favour and take on board Mark's advice in the '£12 dom' thread. I'm done here and Halfpenny's profile has grabbed my attention.
     
  29. foot rott

    foot rott Banned

    Re: non BSc trained uk pods

    ????????
     
  30. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    Re: non BSc trained uk pods

    Well there it is. Bel has said that you do not have to have a degree to work in the NHS.
    She is quite correct. I worked in the NHS myself on and off for a number of years without holding a degree.

    The criteria for working in the NHS is HCPC Registration. Some pods are registered but not degree-trained. There are plenty of UK pods who don't have a degree.

    To confuse matters, there are managers who will ask for a degree as part of your qualifications when applying for a job. They are entitled to do this of course, but it implies that those without a degree are somehow less-well trained, and of course this is not the case.
     
  31. Podess

    Podess Active Member

    Blinda,
    I am puzzled as well.

    Where does the poster called "footrot" say he is called "Tony" ??:confused:

    Question to you Blinda/Belinda/Bel,

    Why does it bother you so much who I am or what my attitudes are?

    Do you have a chip on your shoulder about coming to podiatry via the privately-trained sector ? Maybe you should get a piece of fried fish to go with it.
     
  32. foot rott

    foot rott Banned

    NHS Careers
    Home
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    NHS Careers > Explore by career > Allied health professions > Careers in the allied health professions > Chiropodist/podiatrist > Entry and training
    Entry requirements and training for chiropody/podiatry

    In order to become a registered practitioner you have to undertake and pass a full time honours degree (BSc Hons) in podiatry.

    Universities may vary slightly in their entry requirements. However you will usually need one of the following:

    five GCSE passes (or equivalent), including English language and preferably two science subjects and two A-levels or equivalent qualifications.
    Alternatives would usually include:

    BTEC/HND or HNC, which should include science subjects
    a previous degree, or a full practising qualification obtained by examination in a related area
    appropriate GNVQs and NVQs
    approved access course (science based course with an overall pass of 65% and above)
    equivalent level Scottish or Irish qualification.

    Oh I am not called Tony
    who is it you think I am?:confused:
     
  33. foot rott

    foot rott Banned

    succeed so it is extremely motivating and uplifting. You will all enjoy!" L.Woodward

    Clinical Training
    The clinics at Maidenhead treat over 14,000 patients per year, thus offering a comprehensive range of medical conditions with which our students can develop real "hands on" experience.

    Actually seeing, understanding and working with patients is an important part of our training.



    As well as working on foot complaints such as calluse and corns, the student will learn to treat verruca/warts using chemicals and will see demonstrations of cryosurgery (freezing). In addition, the student will learn how to reduce nails with a variety of nail drills and nippers and learn scalpel technique.

    During their clinical training the student will be taught how to treat diabetic patients, elderly patients and those with periperhal neuropathies. The student will also be taught to make detachable pads and will be shown how to treat conditions such as metatarsalgia, and flat foot. All of these are studied prior to the clinical training and therefore this allows the students to develop their knowledge through clinical experience.

    The Clinic is open for Clinical Training all year round except for two weeks over the Christmas period. Therefore you choose the dates to attend the Clinical Training so that you fit the time away from home around your personal commitments.



    The clinical training curriculum includes experience involving:
    - Padding techniques
    - Use of surgical drills
    - Diagnosis of common foot problems
    - Care of the elderly foot
    - Management of septic conditions
    - Management of disorders of the nail
    - Treatment of verruca
    - Practice management

    This was in the SMAE website don't know much about them our the training

    Hope this helps the debate on this issue
     
  34. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    There isn't much of a debate.

    Points of fact.
    We aren't a closed profession - SMAE is totally legit.

    Pods can work in the NHS without having a degree as long as they are HCPC-registered. Not all HCPC pods have a degree - so there must have been a time when access to the HCPC Register was allowed by qualifications and tests other than a degree..........

    You can cut and paste.
     
  35. M Staines

    M Staines Member

    Dear All Ages since I posted.
    It strikes me we have three main groups involved in Foot Care. HCPC Registered which are two groups. Those formally trained old (State Registered) SRCh. Those who got grand-parented in and the Foot Health Professionals.
    I came from Biomedical Sciences. Fellowship in Medical bacteriology in 1982.
    SMAE Course in 1984 from Saudi Arabia and 2 week Practical - Score it at about 1 out of 10 Very basic No one seemed to fail. Practical training minimal and hand sharprened scalpels!!
    I got a Scholarship from the NHS and three years at the Chelsea School . There was no comparison Course 9.5 /10. I did the Diploma DPodM amd BSc in Podiatry as it was the transitional year 1991.
    I have spent the following years mainly in the NHS and some Private work.
    TOTALLY frustrated by the lack of real regulation. The HCPC are great at censuring their members. Otherwise offer little protection. The Grand-parented Ex SMAE and others stepped into the fold. I have seen and know of terrible failures in professional conduct.
    The FHP's are the final straw They are "dropping out of the sky" in this area Everyones daughter etc is having a go and they dont seem to have a clue
    Where are the inspections of premises, checking Autoclaves and records, note-keeping.
    Amazing how 25 old people get treated with three sets of instruments in the Residential homes.
    The NHS is full of overburdened staff The paperwork so lengthy that there's no time to treat well or care. The New contracts mean "get them out quick"
    What a profession. Its comical
    I have been a dedicated professional and forward thinking Podiatrists.
    I am faced with converting my Supplementary prescribing to Independent when the course i did was for independent prescribing in the first place Is it worth it. Who will fund me, (only two days) Who will fund my minimal prescribing? Why should I put my neck on the block??
    Remember that film where Michael Palin was a Chripodist in WW II and rode a bike with his basket on the front and instruments within. What's changed!!
    Podiatric Surgeons?? Regarded 2nd rate usurpers by the Medical Profession.
    AQP could kill them off (although they're cheaper).
    Am I negative you bet All this Rhetoric on this site. Concerned regarding the variants in the sustentaculum tali
    Hey get a grip on Podiatry as a Profession or wither.http://www.podiatry-arena.com/images/smilies/morning2.gif
    Yeah my backs killing me Bad Mood Pod!! (bending over feet for 30 + Years!
     
  36. blinda

    blinda MVP

    OK, I`ll answer your question, although you did not have the courtesy to answer mine.

    It really doesn`t `bother` me at all who you are. I was merely passing comment on the obvious. You are one of a few who do not have the courage of their convictions to post under their name, which I pity. What I can`t fathom out (and this is really is a rhetorical question, as I have no interest in engaging with posters who manifest such a predictable acerbic attitude) is the compulsion of these anonymous posters to take on multiple pseudonyms.

    'I have so many different personalities in me and I still feel lonely.
    ' - Tori Amos


    Er, no. As I have stated previously, the `privately-trained sector` provided the basis of my chosen career and I enjoyed the training . No grudge or grievance here as it also proved to be a great advantage whilst undertaking the degree.

    I think maybe it`s you who may require some chips to go with that vinegar.
     
  37. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    Well answered Bel. I nearly replied this morning, but so pleased I didn't now.
     
  38. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    Get out then - don't just whinge.

    You left your previous profession to come into Podiatry. Are you going to leave Podiatry for something else?
    Not that it bothers me personally - but I rather think you and your attitude do UK Podiatry no favours........
     
  39. Podess

    Podess Active Member

    David H,
    You said

    and

    You brought up the subject of other occupations, so just how is your weightloss company (Real Goals) progressing and does it enhance UK podiatry?

    Just curious :confused:

    regards

    Podess
     
  40. davidh

    davidh Podiatry Arena Veteran

    You're not curious at all:D.
    And I don't believe for one moment that you send any regards.
     
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